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  • Cheater player

    Something very wrong is happening in the Invincible Me in my server in West Coast. A level 59 player is participating in level 60-69 IM and he is defeating other players that have more than triple of your BR. I spoke to a mentor and he said that it is "normal" but if I wanted I could post in the forums. Here I am, if someone can explain to me how someone with half million BR can beat players with almost 2 million I'd appreciate it. GMs please do something, I'm not going to spend money on a game with cheaters, while you ignore it and say its normal. Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    Its normal, knowledge and understanding of game and how things work may allow you to beat players with higher BR.

    Comment


    • #3
      Actually no, in this case it is not. There are several issues I saw with the knockout round after someone consulted me on it. After seeing the shear BR difference in the 50-59 tier, I became more suspicious...
      I even told a mentor about the IM being wrong and some of what I'm going to mention, but it seems that it was dismissed (which I do not appreciate). So I'll give you a more detailed list of reasons that there IS a Problem.

      There are 3 red flags that should've been found if you looked into it much closer (which should've been done even if a lower BR beating a higher one is commonly seen complaint, at least that's how testing games for bugs, should be approached generally.)

      Red Flag #1 - a level 59 player is in the level 60-69 tier of Invincible Me while they are also in the level 50-59 tier (same lvl, character, and stats as opposed to two different charactors from different home servers that share the same name). This is definitely not "normal"

      Red Flag #2 - A player is beating people that they have no right of beating. At a certain point, if your stats are high enough compared to someone, then they literally cannot kill you no matter how well they built their character, or how badly you built your higher BR character. in the 60-69 tier they are definitely past that point, the level 50-59 tier being only 2x their BR, it could be possible, but only if they optimized their build and the higher BR character messed theirs up in every way possible.

      Now, just in case you're still going to say its possible then there's the last, and the most impossible of all red flags, and it has nothing to do with BR, or leveling at all.

      Red Flag #3 - The ultimate impossibility...

      Now when I initially looked at this issue after someone from US west came to me on US east consulted me about this, I knew that despite BR difference, there was a likelihood that the "BR doesn't mean everything" argument would be used in this case. So I initially looked for other signs that's something was off, and what I found proved that this just wasn't possible, it doesn't even need the other two points I made to prove it.

      Now there were 31 players in the US West 50-59 tier of the Invincible Me Qualifiers, each player will fight every other player, so that means each player engages in 30 fights.

      When you multiply 31 players by 30 fights engaged in you get 930.

      However, each fight takes two people so in reality the true number of fights is half of that number, which gives a total of 465 total fights engaged in.

      Now each fight results in a victory for one player and a defeat for the other. So 465 victories, and 465 defeats (which also relates to the first 930 number, which can be total number of outcomes from fights).

      Now the reason I went in this direction is I wanted to actually rule out a more significant issue other then the game accidently just attributing total victories to the wrong player.

      When I added the victories from each player up... I came up with 474 total victories!... This is an impossibility... You cannot have 474 victories in 465 fights, its a mathematical impossibility.

      Now when I looked at each player, I saw where it occurred, The error starts with Alicorn, based on the pure number of victories its actually off by 1, and this continues for 9 positions until place # 14. Ironically when I compared Alicorn to the people around that number that's actually where I would've guessed they should've placed based on their character compared with the others around them.

      Now the most logical explanation is that Alicorn was simply attributed with the wrong number of victories, and instead of her correct number of victories she was given the Number at placement # 5 instead of # 14. and the 9 difference is because the people she placed higher then were still given the correct amount of victories, but somehow she was given the same amount as the person at position # 4, but due to their BR being higher they were given the # 4 spot over her. Now as to why the total isn't off more then 9. since the victory number she was supposed to get was not assigned to a player it simply doesn't show up in the list.. That's why the victory total doesn't appear to be off for the players below where I said she was supposed to place. after that point, there isn't a victory total missing from the list. This gives further evidence to my theory.

      As for why they're also in the 60-69 tier, my best guess is it is related, perhaps she was inserted into the tier instead of someone that should've been in the 60-69 tier, but since I'm just a player, the amount of information I can see is more limited then someone who is in control of the game. Despite this, I still found a lot of information from my own experience, knowledge, and understanding of bug testing and how they tend to work and show up in games.



      This could be a one time thing, that's hard to reproduce... however its also possible that this has been going on for some time, at least people being given the wrong number of victories part.. Its possible that in the past the difference was only a couple of places off so that it was attributed to them being stronger rather then the bug of incorrect victories given. But in the coming IMs I will be adding them up, and comparing them to the fight totals, I shouldn't be the only one that does either in my opinion. I recommend that you should too r2, or someone affiliated with the game itself.
      My dragon is named Shimmy

      Server: 125 Silent Reef in US East region | Mage | unretired
      Lvl 59 | 3.72 mil BR | 700k Dragon | L.120, 22 Star Illustria, 738k BR

      Server: 170 Nightfall Steppes in US East region | Mage |
      Lvl 69 | 9.849 mil BR | 3.968 mil Dragon | L.130, 23 Star Gloria, 2.290 mil BR

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Alkaris View Post
        Its normal, knowledge and understanding of game and how things work may allow you to beat players with higher BR.
        Applying the knowledge and understanding of the game (to make it simpler i won't consider Nymphs and Dragons for this analysis):



        First about Alicorn Damage:

        Alicorn have 119.905 MATK and Rockmanser S1 have 285.410 MDEF, plus Rockmanser probably have Holy Seal side skills to decrease DMG suffered and Alicorn doesnt...
        The damage dealt by Alicorn would be very low, about 10k DMG per hit.

        Alicorn have 27.486 CRIT and Rockmanser S1 have 29.616 CRIT DEF...
        Alicorn can't CRIT Rockmanser S1.

        Alicorn have 1.198 STRIKE and Rockmanser have 5.525 STRIKE DEF...
        Alicorn can't STRIKE Rockmanser S1.



        Now about Rockmanser S1 Damage:

        Rockmanser S1 have 331.214 MATK and Alicorn have 83.369 MDEF, plus Rockmanser probably have Holy Seals side skills to increase DMG dealt and Alicorn doesnt...
        The damage dealt by Rockmanser would be much higher, at least around 80k per hit.

        Rockmanser S1 have 64.347 CRIT and Alicorn have 12.532 CRIT DEF...
        Rockmanser S1 always CRIT Alicorn.

        Rockmanser have 2 Base Crit Damage orbs that adds 46% damage to the regular 148,5% damage of Criticals, making their crits hit for 194,5% of regular damage...
        The damage dealt by Rockmanser S1 crits would be about 155k per hit.



        Alicorn have 587.762 HP and Rockmanser have 1.935.928 HP...
        Considering Alicorn hits for 10k and damage is increased 50% every 3 turns it needs 31 turns to kill Rockmanser (If Rockmanser doesnt heal).
        Considering Rockmanser hits for 155k it needs 4 hits (or 1 hit and 1 skill) to kill Alicorn. After turn 20, a single hit would be enough to kill Alicorn since damage would be at 400%.

        So... To win, Alicorn would need to land 31 hits before Rockmanser lands 3...
        Since Alicorn have 18% of chance to ignore damage from her orbs, the chance to ignore damage for 28 rounds in a row and consequently win the fight is 1:4 sextillions.
        This probability is much lower than a meteor hit your house.



        Plus, in this analysis I considered only the fight against Rockmanser, but as we can see in the screenshots, Alicorn beat at least other 4 players with similar BR. If this result is really possible i would like to hear a technical explanation about how it happened.
        Bots are real even though people deny its existence.
        Hots @ Dragon Pals S162 Khare Desert | Warrior - 11.204M BR
        Dark Dragon - 4.212M BR | Arya Lv160 23 Stars - 2.344M BR

        Comment


        • #5
          Red Flag #1 - a level 59 player is in the level 60-69 tier of Invincible Me while they are also in the level 50-59 tier (same lvl, character, and stats as opposed to two different charactors from different home servers that share the same name). This is definitely not "normal"
          This info doesnt update immediately after level up, most likely it is already a character of 60+ level with decent stats, which has right to participate in that stage. There is NO WAY to cheat into making your character invincible or unbeatable in IM.

          Comment


          • #6
            The damage dealt by Alicorn would be very low, about 10k DMG per hit.
            No.

            Alicorn can't CRIT Rockmanser S1.
            No, this isnt how it works.

            Alicorn can't STRIKE Rockmanser S1.
            Almost right.

            The damage dealt by Rockmanser would be much higher, at least around 80k per hit.
            No, your calculation miss some things.

            Rockmanser S1 always CRIT Alicorn.
            Almost always.

            The damage dealt by Rockmanser S1 crits would be about 155k per hit.
            Or it doesnt deal any damage at all.

            If this result is really possible i would like to hear a technical explanation about how it happened.
            Sorry, but it is prohibited by developers to disclose any technical details about how stats and fights work.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Alkaris View Post
              Sorry, but it is prohibited by developers to disclose any technical details about how stats and fights work.
              That was just a simplistic analysis, of course i omitted lots of details, like nymph buffs, shield orb effect, dizziness chance, dragon de-buff skills and much other aspects I dont even know how to works. If everything were considered the chance wouldnt be 1:4 sextillions, it would be 0.
              And I don't want to cause problems, just trying to create a scenario where that result is possible, but its contradictory to refute my analysis once its "prohibited to disclose any technical details about how stats and fights work".
              Bots are real even though people deny its existence.
              Hots @ Dragon Pals S162 Khare Desert | Warrior - 11.204M BR
              Dark Dragon - 4.212M BR | Arya Lv160 23 Stars - 2.344M BR

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Alkaris View Post
                This info doesnt update immediately after level up, most likely it is already a character of 60+ level with decent stats, which has right to participate in that stage. There is NO WAY to cheat into making your character invincible or unbeatable in IM.
                That character have no right to participate in IM 60 since it never leveled up. Check Armor Games server 1 and you will see the player in question is still lv 59.

                And how about Red Flag #3?
                Last edited by Hotscrock; 05-02-2017, 10:28 PM.
                Bots are real even though people deny its existence.
                Hots @ Dragon Pals S162 Khare Desert | Warrior - 11.204M BR
                Dark Dragon - 4.212M BR | Arya Lv160 23 Stars - 2.344M BR

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hotscrock View Post
                  That character have no right to participate in IM 60 since it never leveled up. Check Armor Games server 1 and you will see the player in question is still lv 59.

                  And how about Red Flag #3?
                  Red flag #3 is easiest, you divide number of fights, when you shouldnt.
                  Fight of player 1 with player 2, is not same as fight of player 2 with player 1. It two different fights.
                  Last edited by Alkaris; 05-03-2017, 04:34 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hotscrock View Post

                    Alicorn have 27.486 CRIT and Rockmanser S1 have 29.616 CRIT DEF...
                    Alicorn can't CRIT Rockmanser S1.
                    Originally posted by Alkaris View Post
                    No, this isnt how it works.
                    It actually is how it would work for sure after the first 3 turns. Simply, if you have a greater critdef then they have crit... they wont crit.

                    When Crit is 4.6k higher then critdef the proc rate is 62.5%, however when crit is 1.6k higher then critdef it drops all the way down to 6.275%... and once critdef exceeds crit it becomes nil.



                    Also Alicorn has the exact same number of victories in the 50-59 tier of IM, and the 60-69 tier of IM, the number of 27.


                    Originally posted by Alkaris View Post
                    This info doesnt update immediately after level up, most likely it is already a character of 60+ level with decent stats, which has right to participate in that stage. There is NO WAY to cheat into making your character invincible or unbeatable in IM.
                    I never said Anything about it being related to cheating... impossible, it is not. Just very extremely unlikely... but that's a different topic altogether..
                    This is something that isn't supposed to happen, thus even if this explanation would be right... It would still be a bug. You're entered into a tier based on CSC, but once a team is signed up, you cannot level to 60 or 70.

                    The explanation for rf 3, would explain some things, but based on the victory totals, it would mean from when the victory total bug I mentioned to where it appeared to fix itself, the other players managed to kill Alicorn in their own fights against her.

                    *had eureka moment when writing this, so above isn't as important as it was before, but I'll leave it be... explanation for why follows*

                    Now I believe I understand what has occurred... Alicorn did NOT beat the people she is ranked ahead of.. so its not a cheat or a bug as complicated as my first theory based off of the limited information I could acquire. I was not aware that the fights were not the same. However...

                    However I had a thought... well two... Why did the nine players she ranked ahead of, beat her in their versions of the fight? And why would the victory totals in both tiers be the same?

                    at first I thought it was carried over based on my first theory, but no, that's not it at all. Now based on the guessed placement in the level 50-59 tier, which is 9 places higher then she should have placed... in other words, 18 victories from level 50-59, but what about in the level 60-69 tier? When I checked that (to test a potential reason why), I would've predicted her to get... 9 victories... and 18 and 9 make 27 I believe the victory total she got is because it combined the victories she got from both tiers into a single number, thus making it appear like she beat the people she ranked ahead of, when she actually didn't beat them. This is why the victory totals in both tiers are identical, and why she seemed to place higher then she should've in both tiers!

                    Thus the bug itself would be the fact that Alicorn was entered into both tiers, the extra 'victories' is a side effect of this. From a coding standpoint, you wouldn't make multiple entries for a player ID if you didn't intend for this to happen (being entered into two tiers that is). This is good, since it wouldn't call into question the battle system itself.
                    My dragon is named Shimmy

                    Server: 125 Silent Reef in US East region | Mage | unretired
                    Lvl 59 | 3.72 mil BR | 700k Dragon | L.120, 22 Star Illustria, 738k BR

                    Server: 170 Nightfall Steppes in US East region | Mage |
                    Lvl 69 | 9.849 mil BR | 3.968 mil Dragon | L.130, 23 Star Gloria, 2.290 mil BR

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Based on what has been said I decided to throw the original theory out and try to figure out a new one.
                      First starting with what I observed, and applied some assumptions on a temporary basis

                      After Poking around, I believe I found the answer.
                      I believe now, that what Alkaris said in it not being a cheat nor a bug in the battle system itself is true...
                      however... the fact Alicorn should not have beaten those people is also true... I present theory #2.

                      The Observations

                      Observation 1: Alicorn is in two tiers at the same time with a single character ID

                      Observation 2: Alicorn appears to be beating people she should not be beating or even come close to defeating

                      Observation 3: Alicorn has the same exact number of victories in both tiers.

                      Observation 4: Based on victory totals, Alicorn appears to be 9 spots higher in lvl 50-59, and 18 in lvl 60-69.

                      Observation 5: based on victory totals, the extra people Alicorn defeated, also appear to defeat her in their versions of the knockout fights.


                      The Assumptions

                      Assumption 1: The battle system elsewhere appears to be working normally, so we'll assume for the moment it is in IM too, as Alkaris has implied.

                      Assumption 2: Data assignment working properly

                      Assumption 3: We are not incorrect in saying she shouldn't be beating people she is ranked ahead of.

                      Assumption 4: This is not a hax (extremely unlikely, as I assumed before)

                      I then estimated the number of victories that Alicorn should've had to cover my bases even farther... in the level 50-59 tier it was 18, in the level 60-69 tier it was 9. If you add those two together you get 27... That's the exact number of victories it lists for Alicorn in both tiers (if you remember her victory totals in both tiers were identical).

                      Which means she did NOT actually kill those extra people, it merely looks like she did. The victories from each tier were just added together into a single number!

                      thus the reason is the most noticeable, and only assured bug in all of this thus far: Alicorn appears in two IM tiers at the same time...

                      Now that would also eliminate it being two separate players sharing the same name. I have Eons in both 50-59, and 60-69 and they don't have this issue. Thus the victory total being off was just a symptom of the problem, and from a coding perspective I could easily see this happen (from knowledge and experience), especially given that being in two tiers at once was not supposed to ever occur.

                      Thus the topic of whether she would beat so and so or not would no longer have relevance with this theory.
                      My dragon is named Shimmy

                      Server: 125 Silent Reef in US East region | Mage | unretired
                      Lvl 59 | 3.72 mil BR | 700k Dragon | L.120, 22 Star Illustria, 738k BR

                      Server: 170 Nightfall Steppes in US East region | Mage |
                      Lvl 69 | 9.849 mil BR | 3.968 mil Dragon | L.130, 23 Star Gloria, 2.290 mil BR

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It actually is how it would work for sure after the first 3 turns. Simply, if you have a greater critdef then they have crit... they wont crit.

                        When Crit is 4.6k higher then critdef the proc rate is 62.5%, however when crit is 1.6k higher then critdef it drops all the way down to 6.275%... and once critdef exceeds crit it becomes nil.
                        No, it doesnt. First of all reduce chance is capped. Second it grows in different non-linear way.

                        Anyways, this talk is nice and so on, but still no one provides info which needed: server of Alicorn, his realm and screenshot of his character in home server with level 59.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well that's what infield testing yielded for gaps of 4.6k and 1.6k specifically, the nil one was just assumption based on that testing (but really that was just to clarify something, not to really change much on this discussion anyways). The first three turns is due to artifact purify, which isn't available to level 50-59 anyways.

                          As for that evidence which in my honest opinion it should not be necessary to at least look into this issue (when code wise I can picture how the counting error would occur)... but since you have kindly asked for it I will still kindly provide it as you have asked.

                          Alicorn, Server 1 @ armor games, US West region, and still at level 59.

                          Click image for larger version

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                          Last edited by Eoncho; 05-06-2017, 10:59 AM. Reason: cleanup
                          My dragon is named Shimmy

                          Server: 125 Silent Reef in US East region | Mage | unretired
                          Lvl 59 | 3.72 mil BR | 700k Dragon | L.120, 22 Star Illustria, 738k BR

                          Server: 170 Nightfall Steppes in US East region | Mage |
                          Lvl 69 | 9.849 mil BR | 3.968 mil Dragon | L.130, 23 Star Gloria, 2.290 mil BR

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks for information, can you also get grid of lvl 50 and 60 IM in US West?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              When you say grid I believe you are referring to these, or is it to something else?


                              Click image for larger version

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                              Last edited by Eoncho; 05-07-2017, 11:43 AM. Reason: optimization
                              My dragon is named Shimmy

                              Server: 125 Silent Reef in US East region | Mage | unretired
                              Lvl 59 | 3.72 mil BR | 700k Dragon | L.120, 22 Star Illustria, 738k BR

                              Server: 170 Nightfall Steppes in US East region | Mage |
                              Lvl 69 | 9.849 mil BR | 3.968 mil Dragon | L.130, 23 Star Gloria, 2.290 mil BR

                              Comment

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