kh skills

[magerarcherknight]

since titan temple class battle is unfair , why not even the battle by having us knights get some nice passive too like the hunter passive skills . that would really turn the tide between frigga lovers in titan temple .

[KS222]

They do have a mechanism in there...sort of. You get a buff when you have 5 titans, another with 7, and max buff with 9. That does make it a cash heavy system. Unless they changed it, everyone gets defense, healing, and bleed titan for free just from grinding Abandoned Altar. If you took advantage of exchange for time titan a while back, you have 4. That leaves you earning 1 more to get that first buff. Even if you can't clear all the floors, even beating some gets you some progress and as you unlock those buffs, it gets a bit easier (you hit harder, tank better, and once you have enough titans, you even have sylph points full refresh every turn).

I think the reason the devs did not implement a passive, like what you suggest, is they want to frustrate players into spending. I don't think this event achieves that very well. The frustration factor causes many to just write it off as a money only event. Ideally, the event should scale to BR, not be too easy, but not be such a massive heal spam troll fest that players rage quit. Perhaps what they should do is change the TT skills. Instant kill is nice, but the 25% reflect is laughable. Perhaps replace that reflect with 200% attack bonus? One more change that would be a huge help to players: The dead stay dead when you use next attempt. No more 1 HP or full heal for eud.

[R238423534]

They should mirror your own toon and scale the difficulty to 5 levels.
That way, everyone can do TT, and no one can get an easier win than anyone else.
This way, the game is a strategy game again!

[R224070026]

They should mirror your own toon and scale the difficulty to 5 levels.
That way, everyone can do TT, and no one can get an easier win than anyone else.
This way, the game is a strategy game again!

Wartune's developers have proven, time and again, that they are incapable of a system more complex than 1 size fits all. Fair systems don't encourage spending.

[R238423534]

Fair systems do encourage spending, because players feel the fair value of what they are buying.
Right now it's not an issue with fairness, but more like, game experience.
Giving players some challenge and some goals to work on is a good thing, but giving them something they seem to never have a chance is going to simply drive most players away.
And they can't even ask for help with a solo dungeon.
I highly doubt anyone would start or resume spending after so much frustration with just a basic daily solo.
Tho I agree those who could already beat it are more likely to stay and keep spending, because now some of their peers can't catch up with them any more.
But some of the 100% non-spenders (archers) could still solo TOK NM, while the other 2 classes with identical BR might not even clear 2 levels (might not even do 1 level if you are a knight like I am...-_-.
So they did manage to encourage some free playing and drive away some spenders. I doubt that's what they have wanted. LOL

[Vroukarouk]

Mage passives are pathetic. It's only effective when you're facing 4 of them in titan and they AP steal every round keeping you from sylphing. Otherwise, KH mages are a distant 3rd as far as KH is concerned. We don't even get heals, which is the whole reason I chose mage class in the first place.

[R238423534]

Mage Restoration path has heals.

[Vroukarouk]

Mage Restoration path has heals.

The healing ability really sucks. It was better before KH. And if you go restoration branch you have no real attack. If you want any attack you have 0 heals, which is stupid. Not even a heal passive. No one in their right minds goes with the restoration path, except for support in group events.

[R238423534]

The healing ability really sucks. It was better before KH. And if you go restoration branch you have no real attack. If you want any attack you have 0 heals, which is stupid. Not even a heal passive. No one in their right minds goes with the restoration path, except for support in group events.

Comparing to a regular mage, kh mage is terribly nerfed. Look at this:


But comparing to what a knight gets, at least regular mages could enjoy their awesome skills until knighted. (ironic, isn't it?)

We got nothing but useless skills.
More than half our regular skills are completely useless. The only ones that could be used might be like 6 or 7 skills (from both trees).

Only 1 or 2 or 3 of our kh skills are really useful (depends on how you rate 'useful').
Nearly everything costs crazy rage for no gain at all, yet we don't get any extra rage regain ability (my rage regain has dropped after kh).
Other than the basic hit and the 100 rage delphic, nothing in kh is better than the old skills.
Even the second basic skill has become much less useful after KH because of the increased rage cost (from 10 to 20; I NEVER upgraded the 'Second Wind' talent).

[MrFancyPants]

Only 1 or 2 or 3 of our kh skills are really useful (depends on how you rate 'useful').
Nearly everything costs crazy rage for no gain at all, yet we don't get any extra rage regain ability (my rage regain has dropped after kh).
Other than the basic hit and the 100 rage delphic, nothing in kh is better than the old skills.
Even the second basic skill has become much less useful after KH because of the increased rage cost (from 10 to 20; I NEVER upgraded the 'Second Wind' talent).

Knights did get the most rage-costly useful skills, but like all classes, there are 4 useful skills, and one that is much less useful. For archers and mages, it's the 100 rage skill, but for knights it's the 30 rage. It gets used fairly often because it's cheap, but in general, subdue just isn't that great.
But knights do get one of the best basic skills in wrath strike, and gash is stronger than the equivalents for other characters.
So KH skills for knights really aren't so bad in general. The biggest weakness is the aoe attack, which is so expensive and not all that powerful, and that is a big problem for TT.

[R238423534]

Knights did get the most rage-costly useful skills, but like all classes, there are 4 useful skills, and one that is much less useful. For archers and mages, it's the 100 rage skill, but for knights it's the 30 rage. It gets used fairly often because it's cheap, but in general, subdue just isn't that great.
But knights do get one of the best basic skills in wrath strike, and gash is stronger than the equivalents for other characters.
So KH skills for knights really aren't so bad in general. The biggest weakness is the aoe attack, which is so expensive and not all that powerful, and that is a big problem for TT.

Wrath strike...what could I say? The 20 rage cost of a basic skill really bothers me.
I never upgraded the 'Second Wind' talent so my good old ultimate slasher remained at 10 rage.
In effect, before kh I had 2 rage builder skills (+35 from slasher & +10 from ultimate), and most skills cost less rage, which allowed for more skills to be used.
I personally would still rather hit for only 195% and make 10 rage than to hit for 380% but regains no rage.
For the rest, I'm not particularly impressed other than the 100 rage delphic.
Subdue doesn't do well in TT. Most of the time I ended up with 2 or 3 awakened, which isn't much better than all 4 awakened. I use it mainly for 1v1 and 4v4.
But I guess comparing to other skills, it is still more useful than average.

For archers, the most useful are basics and cluster bomb.
The 80 rage delphic has good hit and good CD, but for the high rage cost and low rage regain (hits only once & much lower chance to get the crit rage bonus), it's hard to use it as often as the other 3.
The rest of the active skills aren't as impressive, but their passives are simply too OP.
The awakening drain skill isn't useful for group PvP (same situation as subdue). For most archers (including myself), the best survival feat is to hit through everything before they could do you any harm. And as an archer, they do have such ability.
And don't look at the percentages unless both are the same class.
Despite gash says 260% while aimed shot says 190%, and wrath says 380% while multi shot says 260% x 2 = 520%,
with the +30% crit damage boost, the high trigger rate of crack shot and a relatively decent trigger rate of hunting leader (about same as valorous),
their 190% is almost as good as a 400%, and their 260% often feels like a 500-600%.
And multi shot costs 10 rage and hits 260% for twice, so in effect it's almost a rage maker that hits for 520% and skill CD is only 2 seconds.

For mages, I'd pick the 2 AOE skills.
Fiery lotus costs only 10 rage (in effect it is a 0 rage skill) and 2 second CD for 260% to all targets, which is almost the same as our 80 rage skill.
The 80 rage skill hits ALL targets at 560% and CD is only 10 seconds. That's almost twice of spin attack, for the same rage! Without the passive boosts, it isn't any better than the 30 rage archer skill (most of the time it feels like it's weaker even though I have higher pdef than mdef).
The 1200 awakening boost is awesome, especially for group PvP. But without rage rune, it's basically an unusable skill.
The rest aren't as good as the old mage skills, although their rage cost is not as bad as ours.
That's what it feels like when on team with a mage. But I had never owned a knighted mage to tell first hand experience.

[Buuurman]

As a KH mage (since 2 days) i can tell i really miss the combo 1 Damnation, 2 Thunderer. The +30% on the 400% from thunderer was awesome.

Now i have three skills, Thundergust is the weakest of them all and i don't see the benefits of the +20 MATK it gives. With the cost of 10 rage i prefer spamming Fiery Lotus since it is AoE and does more dmg. Criminal trial is also good but the cooldown of 30 secs sucks compared to Thunderer wich was 2 seconds.
The passives are quite good (haven't got them btw) but it takes alot of work to get the required exp to max them all. With 5,9 mil BR i am no match for TT so i descided to grow some more before giving it another go.

But, i am glad i made it to KH finally because there are real benefits. The titans are awesome, in the right order it makes the diffrence between winning and losing. In my guild is a KH knight and he is very hard to defeat on same BR and he is very fond of the skills he has. He sees the new skills as a big improvement compared to his old skills. For me that is the same.
And for the archers, yes, they sure have all benefits.

[MrFancyPants]

Wrath strike...what could I say? The 20 rage cost of a basic skill really bothers me.
I never upgraded the 'Second Wind' talent so my good old ultimate slasher remained at 10 rage.
In effect, before kh I had 2 rage builder skills (+35 from slasher & +10 from ultimate), and most skills cost less rage, which allowed for more skills to be used.
I personally would still rather hit for only 195% and make 10 rage than to hit for 380% but regains no rage.
For the rest, I'm not particularly impressed other than the 100 rage delphic.
Subdue doesn't do well in TT. Most of the time I ended up with 2 or 3 awakened, which isn't much better than all 4 awakened. I use it mainly for 1v1 and 4v4.
But I guess comparing to other skills, it is still more useful than average.

The lower average rage cost (and higher gain) was definitely an advantage, but if gash does more damage and gains 4x the rage of your old ultimate slasher, I'm not sure why you'd want the old one back.
It is slightly painful to lose rage on a basic skill when everyone else gains, but it does a lot of damage and give a 50% shield, so it's a very powerful skill. It's by far my most-used skill.

And multi shot costs 10 rage and hits 260% for twice, so in effect it's almost a rage maker that hits for 520% and skill CD is only 2 seconds.

From what I've seen, the new multi-shot will not hit one target twice, so it's not the devastatingly powerful attack it looked like at first. A rage neutral attack doing 520% base damage with an archer's passive bonuses would be completely broken.

For mages, I'd pick the 2 AOE skills.
Fiery lotus costs only 10 rage (in effect it is a 0 rage skill) and 2 second CD for 260% to all targets, which is almost the same as our 80 rage skill.
The 80 rage skill hits ALL targets at 560% and CD is only 10 seconds. That's almost twice of spin attack, for the same rage! Without the passive boosts, it isn't any better than the 30 rage archer skill (most of the time it feels like it's weaker even though I have higher pdef than mdef).
The 1200 awakening boost is awesome, especially for group PvP. But without rage rune, it's basically an unusable skill.
The rest aren't as good as the old mage skills, although their rage cost is not as bad as ours.
That's what it feels like when on team with a mage. But I had never owned a knighted mage to tell first hand experience.

Yep, agree on all of this. With better attack passives, mages would tear through TT with no problems. Archers' cluster bomb has lower base damage, but more than makes up for it with the passive boosts.

[R238423534]

With the old talents, after I took off Guardian Angel astral, Reverse Attack gave me +20% skill dmg all the time, in effect all skills had +20% damage increase.
The +20% was applied after skill damage had been calculated, so in effect, against opponents that use crit (pretty much every player does - although not much use in PvE), my skill damage was more like:
slasher 192%
ultimate 234%
WW 192% [all targets x 8 = 1536%] (plus a chance for a 38% bleed)
DD 540%
EDD 612%
thrasher 234% (plus bleed at 50% skill dmg for 5 turns; in effect it's a 117% bleed)
With the old skills, the biggest disadvantage was delphic skill CD, but WW CD was only 2 seconds (compared to the 10 seconds of spin), and I didn't tend to carry DD if I carried thrasher (1-sec CD), so that wasn't an issue for most of the time.
After KH, my rage regain is so poor comparing to the old days and my skills are so costly that rage becomes the biggest problem and I basically rely on the 2 basic skills 90% of the time and have to rely on sylph skills. But my sylph (Odin) has crazy skill CDs (2 15-sec & 3 45-sec skills) and no awakening regain ability (other than divine howl), so I still end up using the 2 small skills most of the time.

In reality, of course I did much more damage with knighthood because of the much higher stats and double RES reduction.
And getting kh is the only way to join the average players' club (BR in the 10-20M range).
To me, knighthood is about stats increase and extra runes (titans), not about better skills.
I still like the old skills better. I just had to trade them off for the much higher stats.

...if gash does more damage and gains 4x the rage of your old ultimate slasher, I'm not sure why you'd want the old one back...

slasher is +15 rage & hits for 160%.
ultimate is -10 rage & hits for 195%.
gash is +30 rage & hits for 260%.
all have same CD. gash is better. that is no doubt.

...It is slightly painful to lose rage on a basic skill when everyone else gains, but it does a lot of damage and give a 50% shield, so it's a very powerful skill. It's by far my most-used skill....

ultimate is -10 rage & hits for 195%. (it's actually 234% because I took off GA & let opponent crit on me)
wrath strike is -20 & hits for 380%. for 2x the rage and less than 2x the damage, at the same same CD, to me it is not a better skill.
The -50% dmg-red is very nice, but Iron Wall and Deliverance also proc often (not as often as 50% chance, ofc), and Iron Wall doesn't rely on skill being used, in effect the old skills+talents wasn't as weak as they sounded.
And I had the -15% dmg & -30% chance to receive crit from Tenacity, combined with block and talents, it wasn't any worse than the -50% from wrath.
I even took off GA & maxed GB & Illusion (& increased block) to get hit by a crit more often so I could get the +20% dmg increase more often.
I know many knights upgraded Second Wind to increase skill damage. Their ultimate didn't make any rage at all, but they were happy with the higher damage output and zero rage regain.
I'd never ever upgrade any talent that increases rage consumption or CD (so both knight and mage had one talent that would never ever be upgraded).
I've tried to take older players' advice and tried Second Wind numerous times, but ended up resetting talent points to get rid of it every time.
It's arguable which is "better". I guess it's a matter of playing style.
I've enjoyed the good old days spamming WW 5 times within 7 turns & used both delphics in a row (with a lucky passive from EDD) followed by ultimate+thrasher spam.
And the passive talents triggered more often when you used more skills and used skills more often. That allowed me to make fuller use of the old talents.
It's the same tactic as playing an archer. Many archer passives don't trigger unless you use skill, and some don't trigger without a crit, but if you use skill all the time and crit all the time, the passive bonus is always there no matter it says it's a guarantee or it's only a chance.

Valorous procs at about the same chance as Tyrany, but because Valorous applies to all skills while Irony applies to only 1 skill, and +50% dmg vs. +21% dmg, overall Valorous is better.
But because we use gash much more often than slasher (significantly fewer skills to use & higher rage use & lower rage regain), in effect the two don't differ as much as they appear to be, because for most of the time the skill that triggers Valorous is gash.

...From what I've seen, the new multi-shot will not hit one target twice, so it's not the devastatingly powerful attack it looked like at first. A rage neutral attack doing 520% base damage with an archer's passive bonuses would be completely broken...

The new MS is same as the old MS, except skill dmg is higher.
It is not 520% per target but 520% combined dmg output.
But because of the passives, their 260% often feels like a 500-600%.
The average, median, and max of their 260% definitely outclasses our 380%, although it's not uncommon to see we hit much higher than them (if their crack shot & hunting leader don't kick in, and our Valorous triggers, then we have 570% while they only have 260-338% depending on crit).
The other advantage is the two-target capability, which is extremely useful when the number of targets are 2 or 3 (magic square, 1v1 PvP, etc.).
I would hate myself if everyone else only needs 1 hit to kill a mob while I need 2 (including the one used by my sylph or eudy) because lag stretches 2 hits into 10-30 seconds while 1 hit would exit fight immediately, but this is the reality for now.
Of course they could also have a bad day when every MS hits only 1 target (I just had one today), but that's a relatively rare occasion.