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  • Immilyn
    started a topic Dragonchant balancing

    Dragonchant balancing

    With the introduction of potency the dragonchanter subclass has become vastly overpowered due to two very unbalanced skills in particular: Soul Intervention potency and the debuff from having four specter talismans equipped.

    Soul Intervention, with its awaken draining ability can effectively prevent an opponent from awakening indefinitely. Furthermore, while it reads "Character and a rival unit -150 awakening pt. each turn" the awaken drain procs anytime the wielder takes an action. This means for the first 10 rounds when titans are going off the awaken drain is triggered TWICE each turn making it even more overpowered.

    The specter talisman debuff for having four talismans equipped reads "When dealing damage, 10% chance to disable enemy from receiving new beneficial buffs for 3 turns." The Shadow Ritual potency increases this up to a 25% proc rate. The issues making this particular ability even more overpowering than it appears on paper is two fold. First while the description reads while doing damage, it can proc as long as the user takes a turn. Using a heal rune, throwing up a holy seal, casting a shield, any of these can still cause the ability to proc. Secondly, while it stats the enemy cannot receive new beneficial buffs it extends beyond buffs to prevent the target from receiving anything beneficial at all, including things that should not be classified as buffs such as heal runes, heal titans, aoe heals from partners in arena. These are all instantaneous effects with no duration and therefore are not buffs.

    These two abilities, especially the specter talisman debuff, can overcome 20m, 30m, and in some cases 50m+ BR differences between players. While I do agree the BR gap has grown quite large as of late I do feel that no single ability or skill should have this dramatic of an impact in battle. While it is my opinion that these two skills are in need of re-balancing, at the very least they should be fixed to do as their descriptions state.
    Last edited by Immilyn; 07-28-2018, 01:16 AM.

  • KS222
    replied
    Originally posted by MrFancyPants View Post
    Well, at least I know about this now, so I don't need to wonder why my heal rune isn't working. It does seem pretty idiotic to me to make it work that way, since there is literally nothing you can do about it until the debuff ends, unless you have a sea witch still alive, I guess (and how is that heal not a buff?). And there's no guarantee it will ever end, given the duration and relatively high proc rate.



    You could make a case for Odin being overpowered. It's not majorly so, but it's easily the most versatile, and very strong in pvp. I like my Thor, but I recognize its limitations, and I lose to Odins a lot.

    I'm curious what strategies you would suggest against this specter set. The big problem is that it severely curtails any strategy options you might have, since all you can do is attack and hope to kill them before you die, or maybe try to wait it out if they're not that strong, so you don't die of reflect. It's unblockable and random, and you can't get rid of it, at least not by yourself. Mirroring the build is an option, but it kind of undermines your argument.

    Also, I think this thread lost sight of the other part of the original post, the Soul Intervention that can keep you locked out of sylph, which is also a bit broken. The loss of a turn when awakening drops slightly below 3000 has been an annoyance for a while with the mage passive, but now this causes a drain on every action, which typically means it's impossible to sylph until titans are exhausted, and it's a bit iffy afterwards. Put together with the specter set bonus, and you can find yourself unable to sylph, use runes, or do anything but attack, while your opponent can sylph up and hammer you without worrying about titan defenses. If it's 2 on 1, the lone player will be lucky to ever sylph, while getting demolished by the opponents' sylphs - although maybe that's not a bad thing, larger groups are rarely all that much more effective against a stronger player.
    Individually, I can see each of these being powerful, but maybe not excessive, but together they're incredibly hard to counter in a 1 on 1 fight (or generally against 1 enemy).
    I do agree the most broken thing right now is Soul Intervention. It is possible to sylph while under its effects, but doing so is reliant on turn order. If you get to act before the person putting intervention on you and if you have the AP gain potency on, there is a chance of gaining AP fast enough to transform before you're hit by the effect again. However, soul intervention will steal AP from you twice each turn before you get your actions and if you're already fighting a group (longer waits between actions), this double theft will leave you getting maybe 1 sylphed skill in before you run out of AP. One could argue that its "balanced" by draining the other player's AP too, but the other player's AP is drained only once per turn and it does not interfere with their abilty to sylph.
    One broken thing I've noticed about the specter set bonus: The game sees puri as a beneficial buff. As far as I've seen, there is no way to remove the debuff other than time, and if you're the only 1 standing on your side, chances are that by the time it wears off, it'll be re-applied.

    What I feel is most unbalanced is how big an effect RNG has on Wartune with the addition of relics and potencies. High level stun relics, soul intervention, and the specter set bonus are the 3 most annoying due to how strong each effect is (they put you at a significant disadvantage against your opponent and you have no reliable way to counter it or prevent it). Random chance does help enhance a fight when used properly. However, when it feels like the majority of the fight is ruled by random luck, it kills the fun.

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  • thor31
    replied
    it simply means that you need to work on your toon and sylphs along with your willpower and get stronger instead of trying to say something is overpowering just because you may lose in arena dose not make it overpowering it means you need to put more work into getting stronger even a group of 2 can win against a group of 4 if you work on your toon sylphs and willpower just have to stop complaining and put in time and more effort getting strong

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  • MrFancyPants
    replied
    Well, at least I know about this now, so I don't need to wonder why my heal rune isn't working. It does seem pretty idiotic to me to make it work that way, since there is literally nothing you can do about it until the debuff ends, unless you have a sea witch still alive, I guess (and how is that heal not a buff?). And there's no guarantee it will ever end, given the duration and relatively high proc rate.

    Originally posted by miranda_psi View Post

    Over 50% of people use Odins. Does that mean they are over powered?

    The number of people using something is no indication of it being overpowered... people are sheep... they see 1 person making a lot of kills, then copy what they are doing. There are strategies that can be used against it, though I have yet to try all of them (or see them in action), but I will leave it up to people to find their own strtegies, even if that is to just copy and follow along....
    You could make a case for Odin being overpowered. It's not majorly so, but it's easily the most versatile, and very strong in pvp. I like my Thor, but I recognize its limitations, and I lose to Odins a lot.

    I'm curious what strategies you would suggest against this specter set. The big problem is that it severely curtails any strategy options you might have, since all you can do is attack and hope to kill them before you die, or maybe try to wait it out if they're not that strong, so you don't die of reflect. It's unblockable and random, and you can't get rid of it, at least not by yourself. Mirroring the build is an option, but it kind of undermines your argument.

    Also, I think this thread lost sight of the other part of the original post, the Soul Intervention that can keep you locked out of sylph, which is also a bit broken. The loss of a turn when awakening drops slightly below 3000 has been an annoyance for a while with the mage passive, but now this causes a drain on every action, which typically means it's impossible to sylph until titans are exhausted, and it's a bit iffy afterwards. Put together with the specter set bonus, and you can find yourself unable to sylph, use runes, or do anything but attack, while your opponent can sylph up and hammer you without worrying about titan defenses. If it's 2 on 1, the lone player will be lucky to ever sylph, while getting demolished by the opponents' sylphs - although maybe that's not a bad thing, larger groups are rarely all that much more effective against a stronger player.
    Individually, I can see each of these being powerful, but maybe not excessive, but together they're incredibly hard to counter in a 1 on 1 fight (or generally against 1 enemy).

    Leave a comment:


  • carnage2828
    replied
    Originally posted by miranda_psi View Post

    Over 50% of people use Odins. Does that mean they are over powered?

    The number of people using something is no indication of it being overpowered... people are sheep... they see 1 person making a lot of kills, then copy what they are doing. There are strategies that can be used against it, though I have yet to try all of them (or see them in action), but I will leave it up to people to find their own strtegies, even if that is to just copy and follow along....
    When you have an ample amount of options the number of people using something is definitely an indication of it being overpowered. 50% of people using Odin isn't so much of problem if 40% of people are using Thor. Yes, people are going to copy it, that's exactly the point i'm trying to make. Too many people will eventually be forced to copy it, because it's unbalanced. Since potencies came out the number of people using that set now is probably 50 times what it was. And somehow you think this is normal?

    But i've done my good service deed trying to point it out, it's ok if you don't see the consequences now, you'll experience them later.

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  • miranda_psi
    replied
    Originally posted by carnage2828 View Post
    Rough estimate you will probably see about 30% or more people already using this and it definitely will get higher. When that many people use something, that tends to mean its unbalanced.
    Over 50% of people use Odins. Does that mean they are over powered?

    The number of people using something is no indication of it being overpowered... people are sheep... they see 1 person making a lot of kills, then copy what they are doing. There are strategies that can be used against it, though I have yet to try all of them (or see them in action), but I will leave it up to people to find their own strtegies, even if that is to just copy and follow along....

    Leave a comment:


  • MemoryLane
    replied
    I'd like to remind everyone that discussions about various aspects of the game are always welcome. Popular feedback about various aspects of the game are always forwarded. Whether you agree or disagree with the topic of this, or any, thread, it's important to share your thoughts, but please remember to be respectful of everyone's opinions.

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  • GM_Equinox
    replied
    Purge rune removes buffs, where as the specter prevents buffs. Which can lead to a whole new conversation. We are still awaiting confirmation of the Soul Intervention. No word of that yet.
    Last edited by GM_Equinox; 08-01-2018, 09:26 PM.

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  • Immilyn
    replied
    Originally posted by GM_Equinox View Post
    The devs have come back and stated that the heal rune and the heal titan are buffs. So the specter wont be changed any time soon. Sorry guys
    The devs have spoken, so it is what it is then. I'm just curious though since these are classified as buffs why is it that a purge rune for example cannot undo the effects of a heal rune and remove the recovered health if the purge rune "dispels positive buffs from all enemies"?

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  • GM_Equinox
    replied
    The devs have come back and stated that the heal rune and the heal titan are buffs. So the specter wont be changed any time soon. Sorry guys

    Leave a comment:


  • 2244565
    replied
    Originally posted by Immilyn View Post

    These two abilities, especially the specter talisman debuff, can overcome 20m, 30m, and in some cases 50m+ BR differences between players. While I do agree the BR gap has grown quite large as of late I do feel that no single ability or skill should have this dramatic of an impact in battle. While it is my opinion that these two skills are in need of re-balancing, at the very least they should be fixed to do as their descriptions state.
    are you saying you prefer it all one sided... high br destroying lower br? These passives level the playing field..

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  • 2244565
    replied
    the 4 spectre talisman is not a bug.. just means if u have it, you have to play smarter. how ever what is bug … is that with that debuff… you can still get heals from sea witch...

    Leave a comment:


  • Irwanwtn
    replied
    People whine just to whine, If its a description error then fine, correct the misprinted information
    If you think its not working as intended to bad so sad if its blocking anything and or everything,
    People whined so much about Holy Seal they changed that, so you'll probably want the Stun effect also "balanced" just like the whiners who didn't like the Original Holy Seal

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  • GM_Equinox
    replied
    We have requested clarification on both. As soon as we know, we ill let you know.

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  • thor31
    replied
    Originally posted by Immilyn View Post

    thor31, I FULLY agree that the Just Road titan skill is a buff since it has a duration and can be dispelled. That is not one of the titans I'm questioning. The Paean of Life titan skill on the other hand has no duration and cannot be undone/dispelled by a time titan, purge rune, odin holy sword awakening skill, death lingerer dragon chant skill, etc. All of these affect buffs and have no effect on Paean of Life, hence my argument that the specter talisman should not impact it as well. The same argument can be made for a heal rune.
    those are also impacted as they also provide a beneficial benefit buff to the player willpower or eud on the other team that your fighting

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