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  • #46
    Originally posted by SmuttyRebel View Post
    Where's the motivation to 'win' when you can't unless your opponent is SO weak that they can't touch you?
    I think this is a fundamental disagreement. What I see here is exactly what this game should be doing for us, which is encouraging teamwork. You're never going to get an exactly even matchup, even if there's a point at which lopsided gets carried away (which is what I feel is happening now). A great guild isn't just about how strong your players are, but about how much more that team has helped make them than they'd be elsewhere. Those used to brute force (or brute cash) can't see that...never will. They correctly point out it's about immediate payout...but they're right only to a point. In the long term, can you play as an effective team, where people get active, the weak ones do their share (in Siege that means doing Harass when you can't directly get through opponent defenses), and when you seem to be overmatched, does the teamwork help overcome the stronger players on the other team? If you're in a large guild, especially those struggling to hang on to people on mature servers, this gets people involved. It's a win.

    Sometimes, you can get a fairly equal match, and it's not a matter of higher BR, but of who is willing to just get in this event and play...and play hard. Be a great guild and make even the newer players or the less-spendy players or the ones whose play style has given them lower BR a chance to be part of the winning team, and that is a win for the whole guild. If you get an event where you simply count on the top 2-5 players for a guild carrying you, there's not as much point for everyone else to even enter the room. And that makes bored players that go away.

    IW tried very hard to be about who would buy the most movement points using balens, and it really was a boring event. I think many in my guild played it just because that's how you got certain rewards, but many were happy to log in with 1 minute left and claim rewards while doing other things in-game for the rest of the event. Siege lets you get on in your own good time...if that's 3AM when everyone else is asleep, fine, no penalty...and when you've done what you came to do, you're not held up there dying of boredom, you just leave. It lets people in the guild say "hey, just get in and give it a couple of minutes and help the guild," and makes it easy. In a balanced match, it's also going to take you time to decide who you should attack, who else in your guild can or should attack some people, so you're left with preferred targets if you're playing it smart.

    Maybe I'll change my mind after playing the event more. It's not perfect, and I'll keep my eyes open. But, this far along, I'm really not willing to get down on this one unless I see a reason to change my mind. With so many other things going on that are a major problem right now, this is a comparative bright spot. I still hear some returning players are dismayed by the amount of game change, and some leave again because there's just nothing familiar anymore. (Though that's not strictly true with modified WB and a couple of other things, but they have a point about too much change that doesn't work well.) If the lag gets fixed...and STAYS fixed this time...Siege isn't such a bad event.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Centaur0001 View Post

      I think this is a fundamental disagreement. What I see here is exactly what this game should be doing for us, which is encouraging teamwork. You're never going to get an exactly even matchup, even if there's a point at which lopsided gets carried away (which is what I feel is happening now). A great guild isn't just about how strong your players are, but about how much more that team has helped make them than they'd be elsewhere. Those used to brute force (or brute cash) can't see that...never will. They correctly point out it's about immediate payout...but they're right only to a point. In the long term, can you play as an effective team, where people get active, the weak ones do their share (in Siege that means doing Harass when you can't directly get through opponent defenses), and when you seem to be overmatched, does the teamwork help overcome the stronger players on the other team? If you're in a large guild, especially those struggling to hang on to people on mature servers, this gets people involved. It's a win.

      Sometimes, you can get a fairly equal match, and it's not a matter of higher BR, but of who is willing to just get in this event and play...and play hard. Be a great guild and make even the newer players or the less-spendy players or the ones whose play style has given them lower BR a chance to be part of the winning team, and that is a win for the whole guild. If you get an event where you simply count on the top 2-5 players for a guild carrying you, there's not as much point for everyone else to even enter the room. And that makes bored players that go away.

      IW tried very hard to be about who would buy the most movement points using balens, and it really was a boring event. I think many in my guild played it just because that's how you got certain rewards, but many were happy to log in with 1 minute left and claim rewards while doing other things in-game for the rest of the event. Siege lets you get on in your own good time...if that's 3AM when everyone else is asleep, fine, no penalty...and when you've done what you came to do, you're not held up there dying of boredom, you just leave. It lets people in the guild say "hey, just get in and give it a couple of minutes and help the guild," and makes it easy. In a balanced match, it's also going to take you time to decide who you should attack, who else in your guild can or should attack some people, so you're left with preferred targets if you're playing it smart.

      Maybe I'll change my mind after playing the event more. It's not perfect, and I'll keep my eyes open. But, this far along, I'm really not willing to get down on this one unless I see a reason to change my mind. With so many other things going on that are a major problem right now, this is a comparative bright spot. I still hear some returning players are dismayed by the amount of game change, and some leave again because there's just nothing familiar anymore. (Though that's not strictly true with modified WB and a couple of other things, but they have a point about too much change that doesn't work well.) If the lag gets fixed...and STAYS fixed this time...Siege isn't such a bad event.
      you would change ur mind after u get a few draws or no matched opponent lol for a whole season

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Centaur0001 View Post

        I think this is a fundamental disagreement. What I see here is exactly what this game should be doing for us, which is encouraging teamwork. You're never going to get an exactly even matchup, even if there's a point at which lopsided gets carried away (which is what I feel is happening now). A great guild isn't just about how strong your players are, but about how much more that team has helped make them than they'd be elsewhere. Those used to brute force (or brute cash) can't see that...never will. They correctly point out it's about immediate payout...but they're right only to a point. In the long term, can you play as an effective team, where people get active, the weak ones do their share (in Siege that means doing Harass when you can't directly get through opponent defenses), and when you seem to be overmatched, does the teamwork help overcome the stronger players on the other team? If you're in a large guild, especially those struggling to hang on to people on mature servers, this gets people involved. It's a win.

        Sometimes, you can get a fairly equal match, and it's not a matter of higher BR, but of who is willing to just get in this event and play...and play hard. Be a great guild and make even the newer players or the less-spendy players or the ones whose play style has given them lower BR a chance to be part of the winning team, and that is a win for the whole guild. If you get an event where you simply count on the top 2-5 players for a guild carrying you, there's not as much point for everyone else to even enter the room. And that makes bored players that go away.

        IW tried very hard to be about who would buy the most movement points using balens, and it really was a boring event. I think many in my guild played it just because that's how you got certain rewards, but many were happy to log in with 1 minute left and claim rewards while doing other things in-game for the rest of the event. Siege lets you get on in your own good time...if that's 3AM when everyone else is asleep, fine, no penalty...and when you've done what you came to do, you're not held up there dying of boredom, you just leave. It lets people in the guild say "hey, just get in and give it a couple of minutes and help the guild," and makes it easy. In a balanced match, it's also going to take you time to decide who you should attack, who else in your guild can or should attack some people, so you're left with preferred targets if you're playing it smart.

        Maybe I'll change my mind after playing the event more. It's not perfect, and I'll keep my eyes open. But, this far along, I'm really not willing to get down on this one unless I see a reason to change my mind. With so many other things going on that are a major problem right now, this is a comparative bright spot. I still hear some returning players are dismayed by the amount of game change, and some leave again because there's just nothing familiar anymore. (Though that's not strictly true with modified WB and a couple of other things, but they have a point about too much change that doesn't work well.) If the lag gets fixed...and STAYS fixed this time...Siege isn't such a bad event.
        it sucks big time....is no more fun
        a bit old in this game

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        • #49
          yup keep it forces guilds to learn to work as a team...
          good speech centaur
          at least 1 part of game where lag is minimized lol
          Last edited by theghosthimself; 01-11-2019, 01:35 PM. Reason: adding
          Theonlyghost
          Platform: Former Kabam/wonderhill now gamerocks
          Server : S122 US-East
          Guild : Fenix
          Class : Mage
          IGN : Theonlyghost

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Xharry005x View Post

            you would change ur mind after u get a few draws or no matched opponent lol for a whole season
            I've had a couple with no matched opponent...would rather have one.

            But, the argument you're making isn't against the event then. It's against how broken the game is that it's shunting people into too-few a number of competitive guilds because balance on each server (or cluster of merged servers) is so broken, and with no incentive to compete within the server. I can agree with that. The old guild battle system, keeping competition among guilds on individual servers was important, and its removal fundamentally hurt the game long-term. You could see a spread of guilds with different play styles that way, it was a fun event (when lag, graphics bugs, and exploits didn't get in the way), and it was only removed because that's what Wartune, unfortunately, tends to do...rather than fix the best events they show a breathtaking lack of both concern for their own games and of programming talent and throw away their best in favor of something new that's often just lousy. Not my opinion alone. Getting this back to a response about Guild Siege, you're telling me then, with 800+ R2Games Servers, 250+ on Kabam, add in Kongregate and Armorgames (am I missing anyone), and with well over 1000 servers co-mingled, they can't find more appropriate matching at least a majority of the time? Really, that's total baloney. How many active guilds are out there? I can't think it's less than one per two servers. Even if you break that down by saying no competition between US West and US East and so on, except where there's already an issue for time zone with not enough activity, a US Server should be matching among a couple of hundred guilds of varying stripes. That shouldn't be so horrifically bad.

            So, if you're NOT seeing matching of any quality, the matching algorithm is flawed, badly...and that's how I think we all are seeing it.

            What I'm also saying about matching is the imbalance doesn't make sense. I look at stats for cross-server matching, and we seem to draw guilds twice as strong (by BR) or stronger about four-fifths of the time, not just in Guild Siege. So, I'm not in one of the "Top 10" guilds...I'm still in one with a respectable ranking, with a core of committed and veteran players, and the matching basically suggests it's not worth our time to come in and play. (Yes, I could take the other view and say we're so active and strong for our BR that we're drawing stronger guilds because we demolish competition which is anything like equal...which is actually somewhat true...but taking this the way the game has taken it, we're rewarded for our activity by being put against opponents that make the event completely non-competitive, therefore destroying balance and the desire to play the event and the game. That's definitely the wrong "reward" for playing hard. And since not all servers started at the same time, and not all guilds are created equal, that's a punishment that doesn't make sense.)

            I think there should be enough guilds out there that no matter where you are ranked, there should be some level of challenge out there for you most weeks. And some level of chance to win or lose in many weeks. If you draw an exceptional situation, then matching is bad or you get no match once in a while. If you're the number one guild by cross-server BR, and by such a margin that there really is no competition, then, congratulations...you've made it so you'll win every time. But, I think even for the number one guild, there's an opponent or two out there who will represent a challenge. Or am I mistaken?

            So, back to the response...if this game can't match me most weeks for this event, and do it better than it's doing it, that's a matching problem Wartune needs to sort out urgently and well. It's not a problem with Guild Siege, per se.

            When @nikchefville says "it sucks big time....is no more fun"...well, Wartune, you know as well as I do, you can set up simple matching algorithms that can give most guilds a nearly 50-50 grouping of stronger-weaker opponents (yes, all of you out there, this CAN be done, and if done properly will eliminate 85% or so of the gross mismatches...consider the rest an incentive at that point for your guild to get stronger, and that's a percentage we can live with). There are lots of ways to approach this one, and they need to be considered. One consideration that should be removed is spend. On this, if you get the appropriate matching, that keeps the game healthy and alive, and keeps the most players playing, and that handles the long-term issues with spend. The revenue issue is not to waste great programming effort with short-term greed, and to let your long-term returns and game health triumph.

            Now, how do I know this "CAN" be done? I've programmed for a living in a field that makes computer chips. I've done internal (within a company) quality control on such things (to help make sure the electrical connections on your CPU work, for example). I've done things professionally that encompass these kinds of issues quite nicely. Not just as a player who will tell you events get stale quickly when they're not competitive, but as a professional who has had to develop a complex set of programs, I have a pretty good idea this can be accomplished. Often, I'm paid to know.

            All of you saying this isn't fun, you need to stare back at 7Road (the devs), ask why they'd spend so much time and talent to develop an event, then not give it the proper chance to succeed by providing something as simple as better overall matching and a much less laggy environment on which to play the game. If it's greed to the point of blatant stupidity...which many on my server say daily in a variety of ways...all I can do is encourage people to walk away from that attitude and get with their own program. Literally. We all deserve better. And if you're unwilling to provide a fun game in a fun environment, why have you any right to expect we'll stay and spend in any numbers. I just want what's reasonable and possible for the player community, and I think the Guild Siege event has a lot of the right ideas. What people responding to me are saying is that event is being killed, like perhaps a lot of things, by factors that are other than the mechanics of the event itself. That applies also to events like Castle Wars, too, where mismatches are pretty much nightly fare, and I'm again in a guild that always sees stronger opponents there (it's actually more like 90% or more of the time in CW) so often that players are turned off and have stopped doing the event. So, Wartune, fix the matching, listen to the players here who are telling you nothing about the quality of the game but are saying it's no fun the way you've set it up, trying to exploit immediate cash so much you might INSTANTLY kill the event and the game...rather than to get a long-term return on the investment of time and effort you put into creating a nice new event.

            One last item that has a bearing on this. It's been mentioned in this thread that players try to exploit events. That's true. Finding the loophole to increase rewards or win when you don't deserve it...well, just my approach, but I have my fun by actually trying to compete, not to see if I can cheat or spend better than everyone else. A limitation in how Wartune has to approach events is to anticipate negative exploits. I think I'm reading here people who really just want to play hard and have fun, and there's everything right about that. But, I want to do justice to how Wartune has created a culture of certain players within the game by its own fast-buck approaches to things, and some come in and should basically name their toon Citibank or MasterCard, or as I saw commented about an event in World Chat at one point, "but there's got to be a way to game the system to get what we want (from a particular event)." Um...really? How about...I don't know...PLAYING THE EVENT! Playing hard and winning when you earn it? Our problem is not being allowed to win when you earn it, or being uncompetitive, and so on.

            If you remove Guild Siege and put just about any other event they'll come up with in its place, if you don't fix the matching and the lag, you wind up back at the same point, being critical of things in Wartune that need fixing, even if the event is super. Don't confuse the two. I'm happy with Guild Siege. If I'm unhappy, it's the way it's executed in terms of matching, and I'm unhappy with graphics prettiness again being allowed to lag us to death to the point many can't play the game, and I'm unhappy Wartune Support in those cases just brainlessly tells players it's the player's fault for lag when a real-world connection to the game has problems because of the overdeveloped graphics no matter who you are or where outside the 7Road offices you are located. For now, thumbs up from me for Guild Siege.

            Let's see if Wartune will actually address the real issues you're having here to make it a fun gaming experience as it deserves.
            Last edited by Centaur0001; 01-11-2019, 02:31 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by theghosthimself View Post
              yup keep it forces guilds to learn to work as a team...
              good speech centaur
              at least 1 part of game where lag is minimized lol
              Got to admit, lag is less of a problem here...specifically in Guild Siege.
              Even so, I've already had rounds in Siege where my skills locked up, and others in my guild have reported they are blackscreening.
              That's Wartune. Not them.
              Hard to have a fair fight when you can't use skills, and the game is choosing the best ones it thinks of for your target.

              7Road tests on internal lines...like being hardwired direct to the source...probably using superior machines for handling graphics.
              So far as it goes, that's not a bad thing, but it's not something most players will ever have the luxury of seeing, so testing needs to be done that approximates a real world experience.
              Most people are playing on external lines (not from within 7Road's building, or that of their vendors like Gamerocks, R2Games, &c.), there are different RAM and graphics and OS packages out there.
              I don't get the impression that all 7Road updates are done on a "minimum requirements" system to see how the game plays.
              I've NEVER had Support tell me the latest update was tested on a system with (fill in the blanks for how it's equipped including which browsers).
              And they probably don't know.
              I've NEVER seen it posted here that such testing was done on the latest patch, so a specific setup matched at home has a chance of getting you the same results.
              To give people something they have a reason to hope would work, that should be provided somewhere...then, maybe debugging would go better, too. Sometimes, it *is* operator error by the players, but when 7Road doesn't give some basic info like this, we'll just keep getting canned answers on tickets that tell us to keep checking our end, rather than them taking their revenues seriously and fixing root cause on theirs.

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