Gem Issue Follow-up

[Splinterz]

There is no set rules about software testing. Sure there are some guild lines but there are no rules. I am sure there is a difference between software used by the military to control weapon systems and software used by a 12 year old to paint make up on an avatar. Wartune isn't a behemoth program with millions of lines of code.. It's more of database that contains codes. they probably look something like; 1A2B.000F.C1D3.001A.69A1 or similar. When ever you use the interface to interact with the game, all you are really doing is modifying the codes. head item, slot 1, gem type 4, gem level 7, enhance level 35 yada yada yada. The actual "code" that runs the game are more like database queries. Nothing exceptionally complicated about it.

[jabbery]

There is no set rules about software testing. Sure there are some guild lines but there are no rules. I am sure there is a difference between software used by the military to control weapon systems and software used by a 12 year old to paint make up on an avatar. Wartune isn't a behemoth program with millions of lines of code.. It's more of database that contains codes. they probably look something like; 1A2B.000F.C1D3.001A.69A1 or similar. When ever you use the interface to interact with the game, all you are really doing is modifying the codes. head item, slot 1, gem type 4, gem level 7, enhance level 35 yada yada yada. The actual "code" that runs the game are more like database queries. Nothing exceptionally complicated about it.

Well, a lot of guessing here and all one can do is guess but it is a lot more complicated here than anyone is guessing.

Since the game is developed 1st in Chinese, their should be Alpha,Beta and production servers there, could be the Chinese production version is the Beta, who knows.

So then when it is time to convert to English, a module or 2 is taken from the Chinese production, translated and integrated into the English version on what everyone calls the Alpha servers (where all the websites get the English screen shots from, I would expect that is actually the Beta servers and the Alpha is in house only).

No matter how much testing the Chinese version get it all starts over with the English version since they are completely different programs (remember the Chinese have many more newer modules), the integration has to be tested.

Software testing everyone seems to assume is an exact science, it is not even close to that. Developers create software and test it (pre alpha, problem 1). Then they have well informed testers test again (problem 2). That is usually the Alpha phase, then it goes into Beta phase where less informed people outside of the development company are brought in to test (Beta servers). There are standards and good practices published out there but who knows who follows them as the standards and practices rarely fit all companies, they are guides only.

Now since the possibilities and permutations of key/window/mouse/browser functions are almost endless it is completely impossible as the complexity of the software increases to catch all the bugs. So once they have the bug list to what they deem manageable and acceptable they release to production.

So problem 1: Developers know how its built so they will never test something that it wasn't written to do as their point of view is why would someone even do that.
Problem 2: Extends from problem 1, informed folks sit in meetings and develop a methodology to testing and then have some number of testers follow that plan exactly.

There is no perfect way, if there was Microsoft would be richer!

On the military software comment! Many military systems are single purpose (task) and therefore much simpler to test. Cruise missles don't have browsers and pop up windows with refresh buttons to deal with, either a function works or it doesn't in their world for the most part. That said it is still not simple.

That all said, wrapped in a nice little bow, all software has bugs! Doesn't matter how complete the testing is, some combination will be found that triggers an unexpected event. Thats reality!

[Splinterz]

wartune isn't a program. It's a database with a web based interface.

[jabbery]

wartune isn't a program. It's a database with a web based interface.

Is that what you believe? whooa..

So how does that database get updates if there is no program? magic? Elves? Gremlins? Aliens? wow... You really think that? What is it you expect happens at the server side when a request is made from that "web interface that isn't a program"? What made the request? Games and many other things operate both client side and server side (both sides have programs).

Ever hear of Flash? What do you think flash is? A development environment that runs within a container in your browser that has absolutely nothing to do with your browser functionality. It is a development language for graphical based programming. Oh man, I sound like a Adobe salesman! Yuck!

What do you think the mini client is on R2? Ahh, a super stripped down browser with no plugin's other than flash? Since the game does not require any browser functionality other than to host the container flash is in. Hence it runs faster? Because it does not have the piles of **** the game doesn't require in it. Well of course it also needs HTML/CSS/JS processing but that is an extremely basic part of browser functionality.

Now the debate on is a flash developer a programmer is a different topic of discussion, that depends on the developer background. Some flash developers are graphic artist or web designers with no training in programming, so they don't know and understand good programming practices. Flash was developed for non programmers basically. Unfortunately due to the lack of programming knowledge many of their abilities appear in things like memory leaks (i.e. leave the room in the state it was in when your entered). It also appears in many flash developments with the system is designed to run (assumed perfectly) and there is no back-end processes to aid in operations or recover from errors, historical reconstructions, disaster recovery, support etc.

Non trained or inexperienced programmers typically assume the environment is taking care of everything for you when in reality if you as a developer don't make sure it is taken care of problems will arise. Back to leaving a room in the state it was when you entered is very important. They also tend to build the front end (visible game to the user) and panic to catch up the back-end (support and operations needed information to aid in solving of problems) later when issues arise.

A huge part of development is what I call the "what if" research phase, a group of folks sit around a table asking every possible question they can think of in a "what if" question. During development many more "what if's" appear, at the end of development before release all those what if's need to be addressed. That includes things like data reconstruction, ability to look into things from a operational point of view (not a player point of view) to solve problems, identify issues etc.

Support (data collection from users), this is a massive "what if" generator. Likely the reason most support requests go unanswered is the developers forgot to put in systems for the operations folks (support) to get the info they require to resolve problems. Therefor you basically get a response or lack their of do to "they don't know, can't tell, no way to look it up". Thus meaning the system is designed to be run with no or very weak management tools. Support doesn't wanna look like schmucks so they blame it on you.

People think and assume very odd things. Everyone over and over again says "that bug was on Kabam only", I love them messages. I laugh for hours. Due to a billion factors, things like security do you think the Developer just hands out non compiled code is anyone who wants to be a host? Thus allowing them to make whatever changes they like? NOOOOOO. ALL players on ALL hosts run from R2games servers. All the programs are identical else it would be a support nightmare! Have a look at your very own browser, it knows how to tell you who it is talking to, WOW its odd when you look that all the game flash files are coming from XXXXX.wartune.r2games.com no matter who your host is (R2/Kong/Kabam whatever) and all outgoing game communications are to R2 servers. strange... It don't matter folks, Kongregate/Kabam/R2/Armor whatever, its all coming from the same R2 servers! Lag isn't the fault of Kabam, Kabam only wasn't hit by a bug, lol. Lag is the game is designed to run on high end computers and yours isn't or your Internet provider or the many hops between you and the servers is horrible (high latency). Arguably the game developers forgot to address the "what if the player had a 2 year old computer with a slow video card on a crappy ISP", I personally think they did not look to see what the average computer out there was and what it was able to handle but thats just something I would do to not limit my audience for a good user experience to a very small group.

[Splinterz]

why did I get bored with reading the last post? anyone? beuller?

[Alsatia01]

why did I get bored with reading the last post? anyone? beuller?

That's basically jabbery's way of saying - "You're wrong, wartune is definitely a program."

[Splinterz]

i could elaborate on why it's a relational database management system and not a program. but you know what.. i just cba.

[NightFer]

Lag is the game is designed to run on high end computers and yours isn't or your Internet provider or the many hops between you and the servers is horrible (high latency). Arguably the game developers forgot to address the "what if the player had a 2 year old computer with a slow video card on a crappy ISP", I personally think they did not look to see what the average computer out there was and what it was able to handle but thats just something I would do to not limit my audience for a good user experience to a very small group.

Does any game studio EVER asked what their customer PCs are? In my 20y of gaming I havent seen anyone do it. If you have lag its eighter your ISP or bad computer or latency. I played the first wartune (3 years ago) on my notebook with 1.6GHz AMD processor and it war working kinda good, but now I cant even load it, or if it does load, the lag is so strong I can barely do anything. Yes the game became more heavy for the PCs to handle and older PCs cant practically run it. But you know what? EVOLUTION came and things change Either buy a new PC/Laptop or dont blame the others for your own missfortunes or want the game to degrade to a level 5 years ago. We are moving forward not backwards

PS: Databases are programs aswell

[Meikura001]

Does any game studio EVER asked what their customer PCs are? In my 20y of gaming I havent seen anyone do it. If you have lag its eighter your ISP or bad computer or latency. I played the first wartune (3 years ago) on my notebook with 1.6GHz AMD processor and it war working kinda good, but now I cant even load it, or if it does load, the lag is so strong I can barely do anything. Yes the game became more heavy for the PCs to handle and older PCs cant practically run it. But you know what? EVOLUTION came and things change Either buy a new PC/Laptop or dont blame the others for your own missfortunes or want the game to degrade to a level 5 years ago. We are moving forward not backwards

PS: Databases are programs aswell

No, but I am sure they put out their system requirements as does any developer to ensure their program can probably run on said systems. So what say you of a country/region that doesn't have, say fiber optic, as their network? Still require people to upgrade to that just to enjoy the game?

Neither you or R2 have a clear concept on Murphy's Law (If it's not broke, why fix it?) when it comes to development. Yes, it worked (with minimal problems) about 2-3 years ago, so why break it?

[jabbery]

Does any game studio EVER asked what their customer PCs are? In my 20y of gaming I havent seen anyone do it. If you have lag its eighter your ISP or bad computer or latency. I played the first wartune (3 years ago) on my notebook with 1.6GHz AMD processor and it war working kinda good, but now I cant even load it, or if it does load, the lag is so strong I can barely do anything. Yes the game became more heavy for the PCs to handle and older PCs cant practically run it. But you know what? EVOLUTION came and things change Either buy a new PC/Laptop or dont blame the others for your own missfortunes or want the game to degrade to a level 5 years ago. We are moving forward not backwards

PS: Databases are programs aswell

No they do not but the information is readily available. There is this cool new technology called the Internet, and they have PROGRAMS that run that allow you to find out information like this. I think they do need to find out where their largest client base is and work with that.

[xxGuTa72xx]

Hello My nick name its â™*KLUâ™*BOYâ™*VIP Server:europe S190 Darkmoon Pass. And how can you see my proff off pictures .i recharged yesterday 3 time 30k balens for epic spender and bigspender .and i not receivet my 135k bound balens.from the event how can be possible. and you can check my toon to see i not received that only the balens .

[agonyaunt]

Ok, here is what R2Games should do:

Make a snapshot of the current database. Compare gems with this database from the backup since the exploit is available. Compare the amount of gems gained in this period. If the gem amount gained by any player is unreasonable, revert all gems to the state of the given player to the backup state. This way, non-cheaters are not affected by the rollback. You can even revert all data of these players, so they dont benefit from the gold gained from selling millions of gold.

I believe a game of this size and this many players wouldn't simply be able to screenshot their database, They most likely have tools or people who can use
commands to find certain players, servers, items, gold ect..

[agonyaunt]

Is that what you believe? whooa..

So how does that database get updates if there is no program? magic? Elves? Gremlins? Aliens? wow... You really think that? What is it you expect happens at the server side when a request is made from that "web interface that isn't a program"? What made the request? Games and many other things operate both client side and server side (both sides have programs).

Ever hear of Flash? What do you think flash is? A development environment that runs within a container in your browser that has absolutely nothing to do with your browser functionality. It is a development language for graphical based programming. Oh man, I sound like a Adobe salesman! Yuck!

What do you think the mini client is on R2? Ahh, a super stripped down browser with no plugin's other than flash? Since the game does not require any browser functionality other than to host the container flash is in. Hence it runs faster? Because it does not have the piles of **** the game doesn't require in it. Well of course it also needs HTML/CSS/JS processing but that is an extremely basic part of browser functionality.

Now the debate on is a flash developer a programmer is a different topic of discussion, that depends on the developer background. Some flash developers are graphic artist or web designers with no training in programming, so they don't know and understand good programming practices. Flash was developed for non programmers basically. Unfortunately due to the lack of programming knowledge many of their abilities appear in things like memory leaks (i.e. leave the room in the state it was in when your entered). It also appears in many flash developments with the system is designed to run (assumed perfectly) and there is no back-end processes to aid in operations or recover from errors, historical reconstructions, disaster recovery, support etc.

Non trained or inexperienced programmers typically assume the environment is taking care of everything for you when in reality if you as a developer don't make sure it is taken care of problems will arise. Back to leaving a room in the state it was when you entered is very important. They also tend to build the front end (visible game to the user) and panic to catch up the back-end (support and operations needed information to aid in solving of problems) later when issues arise.

A huge part of development is what I call the "what if" research phase, a group of folks sit around a table asking every possible question they can think of in a "what if" question. During development many more "what if's" appear, at the end of development before release all those what if's need to be addressed. That includes things like data reconstruction, ability to look into things from a operational point of view (not a player point of view) to solve problems, identify issues etc.

Support (data collection from users), this is a massive "what if" generator. Likely the reason most support requests go unanswered is the developers forgot to put in systems for the operations folks (support) to get the info they require to resolve problems. Therefor you basically get a response or lack their of do to "they don't know, can't tell, no way to look it up". Thus meaning the system is designed to be run with no or very weak management tools. Support doesn't wanna look like schmucks so they blame it on you.

People think and assume very odd things. Everyone over and over again says "that bug was on Kabam only", I love them messages. I laugh for hours. Due to a billion factors, things like security do you think the Developer just hands out non compiled code is anyone who wants to be a host? Thus allowing them to make whatever changes they like? NOOOOOO. ALL players on ALL hosts run from R2games servers. All the programs are identical else it would be a support nightmare! Have a look at your very own browser, it knows how to tell you who it is talking to, WOW its odd when you look that all the game flash files are coming from XXXXX.wartune.r2games.com no matter who your host is (R2/Kong/Kabam whatever) and all outgoing game communications are to R2 servers. strange... It don't matter folks, Kongregate/Kabam/R2/Armor whatever, its all coming from the same R2 servers! Lag isn't the fault of Kabam, Kabam only wasn't hit by a bug, lol. Lag is the game is designed to run on high end computers and yours isn't or your Internet provider or the many hops between you and the servers is horrible (high latency). Arguably the game developers forgot to address the "what if the player had a 2 year old computer with a slow video card on a crappy ISP", I personally think they did not look to see what the average computer out there was and what it was able to handle but thats just something I would do to not limit my audience for a good user experience to a very small group.

I have downloaded around 5 chinese webgames from another forum to play around, see how they work.. The server-side of the game is mostly just the game
loop and other critical things to run a game.. However everything that effects what a player does is handled via queries, I don't know if R2 do the same, but the games I tested use MySQL, the source just lets the server load the game, for example:

public void PlayerHP() {
return PlayerHP();
**

Simple things like this and other code so that the server can read the database, point being almost EVERYTHING is handled via the database on these webgames,if it wasn't it would probably need more memory to run each server, which means ridiculously priced servers to host..

I may be wrong, but I'm just working with what I've seen on the games I've played around with, which are not the same, but somewhat similar to WT.

[Xharry005x]

well with r2 giving all the stuff back to ppl that didnt cheat fair play

but i still condone r2 giving items back to ppl that cheated r2 ave no morals in their own rules and t.o.s

[RedArrow75]

R2Games staff work every day of the week, but are on 'skeleton staff' during the weekends. The devs however do not work in the weekends, so what was said is correct; we are waiting for Monday for updates on the matter.

This was posted 20/12/2015, it is now 03/01/2016, where's the update on this ?