Knight block heal vs. Mage suntora

[Pickapath]

As an archer who went through the adjustment of having df and scatter usefulness nerfed drastically....the response from knights was 'get over it" I will share that response with knights in respect to block heal nerf " get over it "

[R226329038]

A knight can:
Cast Agoran shield that absorbs 20% of max HP every 60 seconds.
Cast Apollo Shield that absorbs 20% damage for 3 turns every 60 seconds.
Cast Intercept and reduce enemy rage by 50 and in most cases forces the enemy to lose a turn, every 60 seconds.
Restore up to 3000 HP after a successful block.
Learn divine blessing that adds 20% more HP than other classes.


A mage can
Cast Suntoria every 45 seconds
Cast Restoration every 20 seconds
Cast Blessed Light every 60 seconds

The Knight has more defensive capabilities than a mage.

A knight with 400k hp, shields for 80k damage. A mage's suntoria with that amount of hp, will heal him back up for 168k hp over 7 turns. Which, if you dont double hit, takes a lot of time to consume (means he'll get suntoria back in barely few secs after it's gone)

Apollo Shield reduces damage by 30% for 4 turns. Since people dont do that much damage pre-sylph mode, most knights would save it for when awakening points fills (if they ever use this skill). That means, Apollo shield + awaken combo, that's 3 turns left before ennemy can attack, making you waste a turn. If you do the awakening + rune combo, you're left with 2 turns on apollo shield. 30% damage reduce for 2-3 turns. A mage (or an archer) can guardian rune for a 50%+ damage reduction as soon as he sees your Delphic.

Intercept is overrated in solo fights against peeps that dont use delphic against you. Intercept makes you lose a turn too, unless you count the 800 damage you'll do as a win XD. Solo fights, I dont think mages use any of their Delph at all. (They suck anyway).

Archers have a Divine Blessing ish skill too. Except theirs, increase HP and Crit (instead of pdef). But mages have healing empowerment, which improves healing by 8%.

For a knight to reach the amount of hp healed of a suntoria (using the mage and knight in the example above), it would take him 56 blocked hit. By the time this would happen, the mage could've cast suntoria 10 times over lol.

[Splinterz]

A knight with 400k hp, shields for 80k damage. A mage's suntoria with that amount of hp, will heal him back up for 168k hp over 7 turns. Which, if you dont double hit, takes a lot of time to consume (means he'll get suntoria back in barely few secs after it's gone)

Apollo Shield reduces damage by 30% for 4 turns. Since people dont do that much damage pre-sylph mode, most knights would save it for when awakening points fills (if they ever use this skill). That means, Apollo shield + awaken combo, that's 3 turns left before ennemy can attack, making you waste a turn. If you do the awakening + rune combo, you're left with 2 turns on apollo shield. 30% damage reduce for 2-3 turns. A mage (or an archer) can guardian rune for a 50%+ damage reduction as soon as he sees your Delphic.

Intercept is overrated in solo fights against peeps that dont use delphic against you. Intercept makes you lose a turn too, unless you count the 800 damage you'll do as a win XD. Solo fights, I dont think mages use any of their Delph at all. (They suck anyway).

Archers have a Divine Blessing ish skill too. Except theirs, increase HP and Crit (instead of pdef). But mages have healing empowerment, which improves healing by 8%.

For a knight to reach the amount of hp healed of a suntoria (using the mage and knight in the example above), it would take him 56 blocked hit. By the time this would happen, the mage could've cast suntoria 10 times over lol.

I won’t get into this too much, but, if knights had unlimited potential to heal using block, then eventually the mage becomes redundant in pve. And it was painfully obvious as more time passed that knights with an unlimited capacity to passively block and heal themselves is unsustainable. It was also painfully obvious in battle grounds that high level knights were dominating 1 v 1 battles, (where level and BR were similar). Thus, a restriction cap has rightfully been applied. You may feel that it is unbalanced, but again, where level and BR are similar, the 1 v 1 situation is now balanced.

[R226329038]

I won’t get into this too much, but, if knights had unlimited potential to heal using block, then eventually the mage becomes redundant in pve. And it was painfully obvious as more time passed that knights with an unlimited capacity to passively block and heal themselves is unsustainable. It was also painfully obvious in battle grounds that high level knights were dominating 1 v 1 battles, (where level and BR were similar). Thus, a restriction cap has rightfully been applied. You may feel that it is unbalanced, but again, where level and BR are similar, the 1 v 1 situation is now balanced.

It's not really balanced. With the added penetration stat, it became a bit harder to block apparently. with about 8k block, I block one hit out of 6-7 against people of my ~br. 3k hp healed back every 6 turns isnt "balanced". Let's look a bit in the future without the cap though. A 1M hp knight would heal 40k hp each block. A 1M hp mage would heal 420k hp over 7 turns. It would take the knight 10 blocked hits to reach the same amount of heal more or less. Sounds good on paper, but, you now have to take into account, that, the more your br, and the more your opponent's br, the more block you need to block effectively. Which costs more than anything a mage or archer would have to pay. It costs the knights it's stats. 1M br would probably be like..30k-40k block? Then, to be effective, a Knight would have to get crits too. that's another 30k-40k. That's ~70k stat points a knight wont be able to get into defense, HP, or atck. A mage who probably doesnt care about block, would have a ~35k stat advantage over a knight. It doesnt seem like a lot at 1m br, but, at equal br, every bit counts, depending on where you allocated those stats.

Also, I'm not sure how it is "balanced" atm lol. Equal br, a knight and mage does the same amount of damage to each other. (one has low pdef, the other low mdef) (or so I heard). One heals for 3k hp each block (which doesnt have a 100% proc rate), the other heals for 42% of his hp, has another on hit heal that heals for about 70% of matck iirc.

[Anubi0s]

It's not really balanced. With the added penetration stat, it became a bit harder to block apparently. with about 8k block, I block one hit out of 6-7 against people of my ~br. 3k hp healed back every 6 turns isnt "balanced". Let's look a bit in the future without the cap though. A 1M hp knight would heal 40k hp each block. A 1M hp mage would heal 420k hp over 7 turns. It would take the knight 10 blocked hits to reach the same amount of heal more or less. Sounds good on paper, but, you now have to take into account, that, the more your br, and the more your opponent's br, the more block you need to block effectively. Which costs more than anything a mage or archer would have to pay. It costs the knights it's stats. 1M br would probably be like..30k-40k block? Then, to be effective, a Knight would have to get crits too. that's another 30k-40k. That's ~70k stat points a knight wont be able to get into defense, HP, or atck. A mage who probably doesnt care about block, would have a ~35k stat advantage over a knight. It doesnt seem like a lot at 1m br, but, at equal br, every bit counts, depending on where you allocated those stats.

Also, I'm not sure how it is "balanced" atm lol. Equal br, a knight and mage does the same amount of damage to each other. (one has low pdef, the other low mdef) (or so I heard). One heals for 3k hp each block (which doesnt have a 100% proc rate), the other heals for 42% of his hp, has another on hit heal that heals for about 70% of matck iirc.

Couldn't agree more, 4% for a block was nice, not much (cause if u block multiple attacks you only healed for the first one -EDD, DD, multysgot, etc-).

[JeffExtreme]

As an archer who went through the adjustment of having df and scatter usefulness nerfed drastically....the response from knights was 'get over it" I will share that response with knights in respect to block heal nerf " get over it "

This. Knights love to talk about how they have been screwed. What a joke.
Try having your entire skill tree completely wrong because they ruined your skills.

After reading through all the posts I do agree with one thing. Resto can be way too much.

[R226329038]

This. Knights love to talk about how they have been screwed. What a joke.
Try having your entire skill tree completely wrong because they ruined your skills.

After reading through all the posts I do agree with one thing. Resto can be way too much.

Lol. Scatter shot is still really useful at low lvls and vs wild bosses (try to beat moon last boss in nm without scatter when you barely have the average br to do it lol). Scatter shot still removes suntoria, agoran + apollo shield, archers 10% damage boost passive (the one that increases the damage of your team by 2% X5 when you crit)..So, I don't quite get where it became useless lol.

As for deep freeze, it's still usable in necropolis. And, with all the past events, I highly doubt people still need DF to complete nm mpd's (even less now that everyone has access to awesome (refined) sylph and their skills. Unless you guys meant the (not so) unfair (according to whining archers) advantage archers had in sky trail? lol

Also.."entire skill tree completely wrong".. I still find Incendiary shot really usefull, as well as armor piercer. Poison arrow isnt even that bad in mpd lol.

An archer can do everything a knight can do, but offensively, which is the most rewarded way to play in wartune, while the contrary isnt true.

Edit : At the rate I'm going, all my " . " will be replaced by " lol " pretty soon XD

[crack81391]

in my opinion, they should return the old block passive for knight, no limit, the more the Hp u have, the more % u heal, ,, but that was before,

[Draconan69]

I'm curious why knights think they should be able to compare to a mage in healing? If you want to heal give up your defensive skills, give up your offensive skills (highest damaging attack in the game iirc) and your super easy rage gain and play a mage if that is what you want. Mages are healers with low damage attacks catered to AoE, meaning 1v1 yes they out heal a knight, but they need to out heal a knight because a knight easily out damages them. Oh and those that feel that -50 rage only effects delphic use, must be too used to knight's easy rage gain, or they are just not willing to give up the skill slot that a mage has to give up for each heal they use.

[R226329038]

I'm curious why knights think they should be able to compare to a mage in healing? If you want to heal give up your defensive skills, give up your offensive skills (highest damaging attack in the game iirc) and your super easy rage gain and play a mage if that is what you want. Mages are healers with low damage attacks catered to AoE, meaning 1v1 yes they out heal a knight, but they need to out heal a knight because a knight easily out damages them. Oh and those that feel that -50 rage only effects delphic use, must be too used to knight's easy rage gain, or they are just not willing to give up the skill slot that a mage has to give up for each heal they use.

Lol, Knights, Mages and Archers all have access to the most powerful skills in the game, which are Sylph skills. Everyone's equal there (more or less).

"Super easy rage gain".. Lol, Knights have the slowest rage gain in the game XD (or the less efficient, your call). Ultimate slasher gives 0 rage back with full talent. So a Slasher + Ulti slasher combo gives 25 rage. A knight aoe will COST him 30 rage, no matter the situation (50% rage cost reduction isnt counted duh). A mage's aoe gives him 6 rage back on a solo fight. An archer's aoe can give him up to 10 rage back. (The rage back thing is rage they'll earn above the aoe rage cost). Pvp wise, Knight's behind in "rage gain". Pve, it's even more insane lol, when Archers can get to 100 rage in one aoe. Mages can earn up to 34 rage in one aoe.

We dont want/need to be on par with mages healing. But people saying a 3k hp passive heal on block is op compared to a mage 400k hp healed is straight horsepoo to me (me, again lol).

[JeffExtreme]

Lol. Scatter shot is still really useful at low lvls and vs wild bosses (try to beat moon last boss in nm without scatter when you barely have the average br to do it lol). Scatter shot still removes suntoria, agoran + apollo shield, archers 10% damage boost passive (the one that increases the damage of your team by 2% X5 when you crit)..So, I don't quite get where it became useless lol.

Explain where exactly I called SS useless please. Because it is actually a very important skill. The person I quoted said "usefulness nerfed drastically"... this is absolutely correct. We are no longer asked for like we used to be. SS, DF were once necessities in nm dungeons. Now they don't work on many bosses.

As for deep freeze, it's still usable in necropolis. And, with all the past events, I highly doubt people still need DF to complete nm mpd's (even less now that everyone has access to awesome (refined) sylph and their skills. Unless you guys meant the (not so) unfair (according to whining archers) advantage archers had in sky trail?

Oh great necropolis. How about the fact no archer now uses it in mps, tok, spire, sky trail because it no longer works not because of need. When you state no one needs DF to complete mps anymore you're missing the entire point. You do know there are lower levels floating around on all servers right? But just because you don't need DF on your team, no one does right? And really, whining archers? Pathetic! The whining by other classes about WB alone tops all.

Also.."entire skill tree completely wrong".. I still find Incendiary shot really usefull, as well as armor piercer. Poison arrow isnt even that bad in mpd lol.

Not the point. I built my entire skill tree wrong. I do not have bloodthirsty strike because I maxed DF and SS. No one uses poison it's a waste of space. But by all means go around saying poison is a good skill.

An archer can do everything a knight can do

Delphics, delphics, delphics. Shields. Block heals. Rage steal. Hmmmm

Knights have the slowest rage gain in the game

Just..... no comment.

An archer's aoe can give him up to 10 rage back

Because of crit! Archer rage gain is heavily dependent on crit!

[DanteMugetsu]

i played this drug/game for nearly 2 years, been first in 3 cw's, first with my guild in xgb and payed a c.rapload of money that i am not really proud of (but at least i had fun all this way). what i learned from my way to the top is that when you want to beat someone -near you br- you can absolutely achieve it, if you plan right and play smart against each opponent. i take the discussion to pvp since thats what matters for the most in here. i wont share tactics of how knights can destroy mages neither the other way around, but with almost equal contestants there is no way that one side can win all times due to class advantage. Consider luck, skill, right timing, lag, experience, ease of mind to select the right skill the right time, factors way more crucial than any op'ness in skills. every class has its pros and cons, but overall this game has a nice balance, at least in my book. i dont expect any 200k br to kill a 400k br in anysituation but thats understandable. anyway if any knight cant beat a mage its because he learned a way to play and cant get away from that cause his mind is stuck and closed to an infinite loop, i wonder how many knights use purge, intercept against mages...(actually how many people know that intercept destroys 100 rage when on 50%???) i am glad that top tier archers that come to fight me, have ss always in their skillbook since its a really nice spell that helps alot. for any tips and tricks dont hesitate to pm me, (i cant guarantee i will answer all, but what i can guarantee is that for any opponent there is a way to beat if u understand his playstyle and find a way to counter it) dont expect to steamroll opponents unless you have payed alot of money. even top tier players that have cashed way more than others now with that br inflation struggle against opponents that wouldnt stand a chance without all these freebies. but thats what is nice about this game, that everyone will be on par for some time and unless they pay alot they wont have advantage, clever business...

ps dont moan/whine, if we forget the bugs, this one is a great game,first try to test things with ur teamplayers and i am sure you will find a way for every problem...

[kimwong]

Delphics, delphics, delphics. Shields. Block heals. Rage steal. Hmmmm

be realistic, when you see knight use dbl delphic in PvP? our delphic is extremely long casting time + high rage cost

shields I can say just knight's special skill, you archers have IS for dmg reduction as well

block heal, I don't know what your lvl is, but for me I won't say it is useful for me now

rage steal, I only use it in GA, other place useless

[DanteMugetsu]

be realistic, when you see knight use dbl delphic in PvP? our delphic is extremely long casting time + high rage cost

shields I can say just knight's special skill, you archers have IS for dmg reduction as well

block heal, I don't know what your lvl is, but for me I won't say it is useful for me now

rage steal, I only use it in GA, other place useless

imagine u survive after pets fights and u start ur first attack after mage has also returned to mage form, the intercept...0 rage...but people die from pets and they have no idea what a hardcore casher tanking knight can destroy almost any class since at 50% we gonna start with 0 rage...

of course i dont say that this applies to every situation or that knights will start to steamroll mages...but since now we start to survive pets attacks, things are getting more complicated and u have to think well before u use ur rage.

[kimwong]

imagine u survive after pets fights and u start ur first attack after mage has also returned to mage form, the intercept...0 rage...but people die from pets and they have no idea what a hardcore casher tanking knight can destroy almost any class since at 50% we gonna start with 0 rage...

of course i dont say that this applies to every situation or that knights will start to steamroll mages...but since now we start to survive pets attacks, things are getting more complicated and u have to think well before u use ur rage.

I would rather use chaos rune to prevent your healing instead of wasting a slot of intercept

and how many people can survive after sylph round, thus I doubt it for your case