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  • HumbleSlayer
    replied
    Originally posted by daunapu View Post
    Why do you insist to play stupid? You know there are other ways to get PDEF than gems? Obviously he means 1 gem is enough for him to have 52k pdef in total, I have 56k without any gem or astral, just from gear....

    Thank you danapu. I knew you were smart.

    ON 3 OTHER POSTS HERE, I stated, if ANYONE did NOT know how to get 52k defense with 95k attack and almost NO gems for defense... PM ME. I will explain this.

    I tried to help the OP. He simply needs dimensions. He is not absent of defenses like the player I fought in BG with 95k attack 52k def(yet still winning fights COMPLETELY due to dimensions and resists)

    DIMENSIONS > DEFENSES PERIOD

    Originally posted by MrFancyPants View Post
    This thread is kinda baffling. The mechanics of atk vs. def and res vs. reduce res are very well understood at this point, so it's actually mathematically provable what's better in any situation. HumbleSlayer's not really wrong, since in so many situations, higher res is the more important factor, but Arlad's completely correct in his general point (def + res > no def + res) that I can only attribute the continued debate to a desire to flame.

    Edit: As SlowPlay pointed out, Arlad used terrible examples, and in that one, it's even wrong. When you have higher def than your opponent's atk, it's irrelevant, and the game uses 10% of the atk value instead of the difference. 15k - 10k less 80% is 1k, but 10% of 15k is 1.5k, so the res is better in that instance.

    Let me point out the flaws in focusing on resistance and ignoring defense, though:
    1. There is no reason to focus, there is no trade-off. There are essentially no resources that are shared between building def and res. Except for time spent playing, obviously, but building res is far more time-intensive than anything specific to def. You have to sacrifice other things to get higher def, so it's a completely different question what's better to have.
    2. High res will only protect you against one sylph type, and permanently high res in a specific element is essentially impossible. Eventually, you will have to switch elements, and those herc users you were killing will 1-shot you with their delphics, unless you build up mdef to a level of survivability.
    3. Most important, res and def are complementary, so they will combine to reduce your damage.

    If you have 60k def against someone with 95k atk, and you can get an extra 5k def from somewhere (like a couple of gems), you're gaining around 15% damage reduction. If you have around 300 higher res than your opponent's res reduce, then another 80 res will also give you 15% more reduction. One may be easier to get than the other, but why not go for both?

    The marginal value of one more point of res will remain high (unless will crystals suddenly become very cheap), while the value of one more point of def is going to keep dropping over time as stats go higher, but right now it's still a long ways from zero.
    +1............
    Last edited by EsmeWeatherwax; 03-04-2015, 03:12 AM. Reason: post merge

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  • kittyariel
    replied
    Originally posted by Arlad View Post
    the question is, how much defense would be the point where res took more effect. look at my examples, they are using defense point where its higher than opponent's attack point. there are points where the defense are high enough that res wont make much difference. however let me repeat this for 100000 time like a broken record: Having good defense AND good res is better than relying on res only.
    so far there are no one who prove me wrong on this part.
    .




    so obvious and irrelevant, that someone (or two) argued with me that stacking on 1 res is not effective, right?

    You say use example of a defense where it is higher than opponents attack. The number i keep seeing is 95k attack......... Lets say its an archer vs archer fight. If the first (stronger archer) has 95k defense.... then that archer's attack would be around 150k. If that player faced a player with 95k attack and 50k defense the first player would AFK the 2nd player. The stats on a player with 150k attack 95k defenses woudl also have about 700k HP. It wouldnt matter how much resistance or dimensions or ANY stat on the 2nd player.

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  • Brutal_Hobo
    replied
    Originally posted by mrfancypants View Post
    humbleslayer's not really wrong


    hahahahahahahaha!!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • pietjeprecies
    replied
    Originally posted by SlowPlay View Post
    Alrad, once again, why just don't tell op that he should cash 100k/day so he can kill everyone in bg? It would be as usefull as what ur stating over and over.
    I killed cw top 16 contenders with my 1 element stack, so I defeated those who do cash 100k a day.
    On a side note, that was when dimension war was just added and lots of people didn't see the huge advantages yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • SlowPlay
    replied
    Alrad, once again, why just don't tell op that he should cash 100k/day so he can kill everyone in bg? It would be as usefull as what ur stating over and over.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arlad
    replied
    Originally posted by SlowPlay View Post
    @Arlad

    Just to end it, you're wrong. On your first post u said that



    The bold part is totally wrong for how wartune works now, the guy with 80% res would win against the stronger guy without res and the fact that op lose to lower br with stacked res prove me right (and also because i almost lost to a 450k guy with stacked electro res and fire pet when i was rebuilding dim, my patk is double his pdef and my mdef is 1k lower then is matk).
    the question is, how much defense would be the point where res took more effect. look at my examples, they are using defense point where its higher than opponent's attack point. there are points where the defense are high enough that res wont make much difference. however let me repeat this for 100000 time like a broken record: Having good defense AND good res is better than relying on res only.
    so far there are no one who prove me wrong on this part.

    Then u started sayin that being stronger and having stacked res is better, in italy we say grazie al cazzo which i think can be traslated with thanks for nothing, it's obvious and irrelevant. When you have to give a tip to someone u wanna tell him what's most important above everything, if your comment is something like everything is important, don't post, it's as i said obvious and irrelevant. And as you saw when op posted his screenshot, he has pretty high pdef and averange mdef but low res and res red so what you wanna tell him is to focus on his dimension and to dump some pdef to get block (which he doesn't have), if you wanna keep sayin that having monster br with.
    so obvious and irrelevant, that someone (or two) argued with me that stacking on 1 res is not effective, right?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrFancyPants
    replied
    This thread is kinda baffling. The mechanics of atk vs. def and res vs. reduce res are very well understood at this point, so it's actually mathematically provable what's better in any situation. HumbleSlayer's not really wrong, since in so many situations, higher res is the more important factor, but Arlad's completely correct in his general point (def + res > no def + res) that I can only attribute the continued debate to a desire to flame.

    Edit: As SlowPlay pointed out, Arlad used terrible examples, and in that one, it's even wrong. When you have higher def than your opponent's atk, it's irrelevant, and the game uses 10% of the atk value instead of the difference. 15k - 10k less 80% is 1k, but 10% of 15k is 1.5k, so the res is better in that instance.

    Let me point out the flaws in focusing on resistance and ignoring defense, though:
    1. There is no reason to focus, there is no trade-off. There are essentially no resources that are shared between building def and res. Except for time spent playing, obviously, but building res is far more time-intensive than anything specific to def. You have to sacrifice other things to get higher def, so it's a completely different question what's better to have.
    2. High res will only protect you against one sylph type, and permanently high res in a specific element is essentially impossible. Eventually, you will have to switch elements, and those herc users you were killing will 1-shot you with their delphics, unless you build up mdef to a level of survivability.
    3. Most important, res and def are complementary, so they will combine to reduce your damage.

    If you have 60k def against someone with 95k atk, and you can get an extra 5k def from somewhere (like a couple of gems), you're gaining around 15% damage reduction. If you have around 300 higher res than your opponent's res reduce, then another 80 res will also give you 15% more reduction. One may be easier to get than the other, but why not go for both?

    The marginal value of one more point of res will remain high (unless will crystals suddenly become very cheap), while the value of one more point of def is going to keep dropping over time as stats go higher, but right now it's still a long ways from zero.
    Last edited by MrFancyPants; 03-03-2015, 11:15 AM.

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  • SlowPlay
    replied
    Originally posted by Littlelyseria View Post
    Yea i know, i've been using ruthlessness into my PVE set lately since 2.5k PDEF doesnt really matter in any PVE stuff right now and on PVP they are a must imo,
    EWD setup really makes it easy to equip em all

    Note: 2 more pages since i posted this @ night lol
    Ruth is kind of an useless astral overall unless ur lucky.

    @Arlad

    Just to end it, you're wrong. On your first post u said that

    Originally posted by Arlad View Post
    i wont say pdef/mdef not matter much anymore.
    against opponent with 15k matk/patk, if, its better to have 20k pdef/mdef with 0 damage res than having 80% damage reduction but only have 10k pdef/mdef

    the point is, high res would be more useful if you have high defense stat. but do not neglect any of them.
    The bold part is totally wrong for how wartune works now, the guy with 80% res would win against the stronger guy without res and the fact that op lose to lower br with stacked res prove me right (and also because i almost lost to a 450k guy with stacked electro res and fire pet when i was rebuilding dim, my patk is double his pdef and my mdef is 1k lower then is matk).

    Then u started sayin that being stronger and having stacked res is better, in italy we say grazie al cazzo which i think can be traslated with thanks for nothing, it's obvious and irrelevant. When you have to give a tip to someone u wanna tell him what's most important above everything, if your comment is something like everything is important, don't post, it's as i said obvious and irrelevant. And as you saw when op posted his screenshot, he has pretty high pdef and averange mdef but low res and res red so what you wanna tell him is to focus on his dimension and to dump some pdef to get block (which he doesn't have), if you wanna keep sayin that having monster br with monster atk/def/hp and stacked res is better, you may as well tell him that cash 100k/day is better then play for free.

    @HUmbleSlayer dude u kinda gotta learn how to argue with people, you were right yet u failed badly on proving you right and nearly let him get away.

    Leave a comment:


  • daunapu
    replied
    Originally posted by pietjeprecies View Post
    Where did you get the lvl 35 gem scroll?
    Originally posted by Brutal_Hobo View Post
    same place anitaporpoarfha got his non casher br at level 64
    Why do you insist to play stupid? You know there are other ways to get PDEF than gems? Obviously he means 1 gem is enough for him to have 52k pdef in total, I have 56k without any gem or astral, just from gear....

    Leave a comment:


  • Brutal_Hobo
    replied
    Originally posted by pietjeprecies View Post
    Where did you get the lvl 35 gem scroll?

    same place anitaporpoarfha got his non casher br at level 64

    Leave a comment:


  • pietjeprecies
    replied
    Originally posted by HumbleSlayer View Post
    1 pdef gem gets me 52k pdef
    Where did you get the lvl 35 gem scroll?

    Leave a comment:


  • Arlad
    replied
    Originally posted by HumbleSlayer View Post
    -bah blah too long-

    again... in case you come back .... AGAIN trying to make up what I said, or argument........ I CAME TO HELP THE OP. 6 posters all say same exact thing I say. DIMENSIONS > DEFENSE
    IM TRYING TO MAKE UP WHAT YOU SAID? Im not the one who said this:

    Originally posted by HumbleSlayer View Post
    The only thing that really matters are dimensions and resist crystals. I was fighting the same class in bg other day. We both had same sylphs, I have only 4 basic, 1 inter open with all very high resist crystals. My atk more than double his def and still can barely hurt him in sylph mode or out. He had to have 3-4 adv dimensions open. Good for him...

    pdef/mdef really don't matter much at all anymore.
    Read all my posts, do i ever said that DEFENSE IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN RESIST?
    READ AGAIN, WHAT I SAID IS:

    Originally posted by Arlad View Post
    i wont say pdef/mdef not matter much anymore.
    against opponent with 15k matk/patk, if, its better to have 20k pdef/mdef with 0 damage res than having 80% damage reduction but only have 10k pdef/mdef

    the point is, high res would be more useful if you have high defense stat. but do not neglect any of them.
    Originally posted by Arlad View Post
    seems you keep misreading my point, with i already stated earlier:



    to make it simpler for people who have problem with a slightly complicated text: The more defense you have, the more useful resistance is.

    besides, defense works on ALL element, and its would be very hard to build good resistance on all element.


    You said having 52k defense is like having 0 (ZERO) defense. Then please, prove it by doing what i said: Remove everything that adds defense, and rely on Res only.
    Last edited by Arlad; 03-03-2015, 06:20 AM.

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  • HumbleSlayer
    replied
    Originally posted by Arlad View Post
    if you want can't / won't disprove my statement, then stop arguing.
    read all if my posts, do i ever said even once to not to build resistance? heck i even argued with someone else about the better ways to build res.
    what I'm arguing against you is the part where you said defense is useless. i fully disagree with that and still think having BOTH high resistance AND defense is better.

    95k attack, 52k defense is having ZERO defense almost. 1 pdef gem gets me 52k pdef. Anyone winning ANY battles while completely neglecting defense is doing it with dimensions.



    FIRST PAGE, FIRST POST........ DIMENSIONS > DEFENSE... PERIOD having 52k def when u have 95k attack is like having 5% defense. Of course having the highest number in the game of every category is best. Lets all have 1M every stat... tahts better, plus dimensions all expert and level 9 will crystals and resist

    52k defense with 95k attack is like having NO DEFENSE what so ever. if you have this and you win, its 100% dimensions that allow you to win.... AND CONGRATS FOR THAT.

    AGAIN, dimensions > defense............ first page, first post. 6 posters came in and all said same exact thing. There is no argument....... DIMENSION > DEFENSE (in case you forgot)

    never once did I say " defense is useless" quit making up stories.... again

    Originally posted by HumbleSlayer View Post
    I never came here to prove or disprove you. I came here to help the OP. He has solid defense(WAY more than 52k) and a nasty herc... HE NEEDS DIMENSIONS AND/OR HIGH RESIST CRYSTALS.... just like I said.

    If we are building perfect, undefeatable toon.... I want all level 8 (bc that high as you can get with spender) resist crystals of 3 different elements, an Orange Gaia with all orange gear, 900k pdef/mdef, crit and attack, and 2M HP.

    I posted here first on how to HELP THE OP..... you came out from your bridge to argue for days and 6 different posters came here to prove that %s (resistance) are of MORE VALUE than set stats (defense) which is exactly what I originally posted
    again... in case you come back .... AGAIN trying to make up what I said, or argument........ I CAME TO HELP THE OP. 6 posters all say same exact thing I say. DIMENSIONS > DEFENSE
    Last edited by EsmeWeatherwax; 03-03-2015, 05:08 AM. Reason: post merge

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  • Arlad
    replied
    Originally posted by HumbleSlayer View Post
    I never came here to prove or disprove you. I came here to help the OP. He has solid defense(WAY more than 52k) and a nasty herc... HE NEEDS DIMENSIONS AND/OR HIGH RESIST CRYSTALS.... just like I said.

    If we are building perfect, undefeatable toon.... I want all level 8 (bc that high as you can get with spender) resist crystals of 3 different elements, an Orange Gaia with all orange gear, 900k pdef/mdef, crit and attack, and 2M HP.

    I posted here first on how to HELP THE OP..... you came out from your bridge to argue for days and 6 different posters came here to prove that %s (resistance) are of MORE VALUE than set stats (defense) which is exactly what I originally posted
    if you want can't / won't disprove my statement, then stop arguing.
    read all if my posts, do i ever said even once to not to build resistance? heck i even argued with someone else about the better ways to build res.
    what I'm arguing against you is the part where you said defense is useless. i fully disagree with that and still think having BOTH high resistance AND defense is better.

    Leave a comment:


  • HumbleSlayer
    replied
    Originally posted by Littlelyseria View Post
    Yea i know, i've been using ruthlessness into my PVE set lately since 2.5k PDEF doesnt really matter in any PVE stuff right now and on PVP they are a must imo,
    EWD setup really makes it easy to equip em all

    Note: 2 more pages since i posted this @ night lol
    I don't like ruthless astral but I am glad someone is getting some use out of it. I hope it gives you the higher % instead of lower almost every time

    yes, bc this kid's bridge is all muddy underneath and nothing else to do. Every time I post on almost any category for months, he comes. I came to help the OP because I was in his shoes at the start of all this dimension entry to game. I gave valid example from the day of the post in BG and its turned into madness with only broken examples and silliness

    Leave a comment:

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