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Runaway Mage Healing

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  • Originally posted by KS222 View Post
    Heal spam is annoying. Its available to all classes. Heal rune, Iris/Triton/2nd evo (whatever it is), and class specific heal abilities. Mages have the lowest base HP stat and have the least single target dps (big nerf in PvE). The devs bestowed upon mages many heal skills to help make up for our weaknesses (yes, I'm a mage). I find heal spamming knights and archers quite annoying. Whittle them down to low HP, they transform, cast Iris/Triton heal, full HP again. Get a knight down to low HP, watch that maxed advanced rune heal for over 200k. Some strong knights get a better heal from their runes than I get from my restoration.

    Every skill has a weakness or way to counter it. Mage heals can be stolen and there are specific skills to nerf heal (that work only on mage and Iris/Triton heals; they don't work on any other form of heal). You can bring the runes/skills to nerf/steal heals or you can bring other runes/skills you think will help you more. The fact remains that they counters to heal are out there and available to anyone. If you choose not to bring the counters then whine about mage heals, that's your own fault. I choose not to bring them because all heals really do is extend the fight. If you time a heal well, it will let you keep fighting to get the win. Some will spam heals even if they can't win, simply to discourage further attacks. We get rewarded for quantity of kills, not for quality of fights, so people want fast kills. Take forever to kill and many will go elsewhere. Its a legit tactic and more than mages do it. Everyone has their stalling skills to make a fight take longer.

    Some heals do increase in bonus time. This is because they are based on attack and bonus time increases attack. However, defense does not increase. We can get slightly bigger heals, but those heals do not keep up with the increased attack the other player gets. Non dps moves in a fight serve only to stall. If stalling is enough to let you win, great, stall away. If its not, then stalling's primary purpose is to discourage further attacks. Makes sense to me. Why be easy prey for stronger players? Why not stall, make it take a while, give stronger players good reason to find a faster kill and leave you alone? (Note: Mage Restoration and Blessed Light increase due to being based on attack. Iris/Triton heals also increase in bonus time for same reason. This increase is available to all classes if you choose the right sylph. It is not a mage exclusive advantage.)

    Short story long, this is a strategy game. Each class has been given a specific skill set and specific strengths. The whole point of PvP (unless you cash so much that you're unbeatable no matter how poorly you play) is to find the most effective skills/build to get the most wins. When you come across a tactic that foils you, if it is not simply too much BR being the issue, you can look at your own skills and build. There are ways to overcome many tactics; often patience and/or the right skills/runes are the key. My own skill set for bg is far heavier on attacks than on heals. Heals can give me the HP to last and win the fight, but its attacks that will actually win it. Relying entirely on sylph is a mistake, especially with resistances and runes allowing people to nerf hits or block some of your skills.

    I also have a mage... and this makes perfect sense to me. And yes everything you said embody's the mage class perfectly. we are meant to stand there look pretty, do some damage but fully expected to heal everyone full time. I bet that when you are in an mpd and they nerf the mage heals as this person is suggesting they'd be crying yet again because their mage couldn't keep them alive to kill last boss in mpd. Yes mages in pvp are annoying; but everyone loves to hate us

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Luxiepoo View Post
      I also have a mage... and this makes perfect sense to me. And yes everything you said embody's the mage class perfectly. we are meant to stand there look pretty, do some damage but fully expected to heal everyone full time. I bet that when you are in an mpd and they nerf the mage heals as this person is suggesting they'd be crying yet again because their mage couldn't keep them alive to kill last boss in mpd. Yes mages in pvp are annoying; but everyone loves to hate us
      Not sure what thread you read but nobody here suggested that mage healing be nerfed in PvE. Right now nothing can stand up against mage healing in PvP and that is the focal point of the thread. Now if you suggest, like so many others in this thread, that mages are somehow entitled to a 50% and a 90% base matk heal as well as suntora, heal rune and guardian rune because they have 20% less health and/or 10% less crit damage than knights/archers, I'm sorry but I'm afraid that argument falls short on so many levels that it's almost comical.

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      • Originally posted by DevilGrave View Post
        AS I agree that mages Heals are OP in PVP an that sylph skills are bugged with them like Devils Gaze. Archers Deep Freeze does work PVP Trust me I play an archer lvl 80 scared dragon bowman lvl 5 It works You have to time it right Use it before sylph if you make it that far.
        Now archers an Knights were nerf hammered hard while all they did to mages was raise their talent xp cost. Lame I know but when you think about it mst of the casher crowd play mages so if they got nerfed they would lose to much money. Is all about the $$ they dont care if its a fair fight or not its what class spends more money MAGES do always have an always will
        please read what the skill effect is supposed to be there is no hocus pocus use it at this exact point and it will do....... clearly states 100% reduction in casting speed for 2 turns plus 1 QTE mire rune at lvl 10 100% reduction in casting speed for 3 turns deep freeze and mire do not and have not worked to the stated effects for a long time not sure how this keeps getting reasoned out they do work
        but if you believe so well have at it and thank R2

        Comment


        • Originally posted by OhBummer View Post
          Not sure what thread you read but nobody here suggested that mage healing be nerfed in PvE. Right now nothing can stand up against mage healing in PvP and that is the focal point of the thread.
          How can you nerf mage healing in PvP, and retain the same skill levels in PvE...

          Surely you either nerf everywhere, or you don't nerf at all...

          Me thinks, you realise that if they nerfed the healing everywhere, your MPD attempts would no longer be so easy...
          Originally posted by CreamySaucepan
          You are just a freakozoid... Monster of Frankenstein meets Jabba the Hutt... Frabba the Huttstein... :P
          Originally posted by CreamySaucepan
          Behind every fat Space Slug is a blood thirsty sociopath urging it on.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by OhBummer View Post
            Not sure what thread you read but nobody here suggested that mage healing be nerfed in PvE. Right now nothing can stand up against mage healing in PvP and that is the focal point of the thread. Now if you suggest, like so many others in this thread, that mages are somehow entitled to a 50% and a 90% base matk heal as well as suntora, heal rune and guardian rune because they have 20% less health and/or 10% less crit damage than knights/archers, I'm sorry but I'm afraid that argument falls short on so many levels that it's almost comical.
            So much complaining. Many players have already listed the disadvantages of being a mage. The fact is the devs have bestowed upon every class a way to survive. Mages got heals. Heals can be countered, just like every other class survival tactic. Rather than whining and demanding the game adapt to you, start bringing a way to counter heals if they cause you so much grief.

            Personally, my preferred counter to heals is dps. I could use chaos, but its luck based and I hate having to rely on something that can troll me. I could use Hades/Gaia for its heal nerf skill. I prefer to use Cerberus or Hercules in 1 vs 1 because they both possess high single target dps, making up for my class weakness. I go patk when I'm mostly fighting other mages. I go matk when mostly fighting archers/knights. I don't demand that knight's natural pdef and high HP be nerfed just because my main sylph is a patk sylph. Instead, I adapt. If I'm fighting a lot of knights, I bring a sylph to better nuke knights. In bonus time, with those nice defensive debuffs my sylphs have, its pretty darn hard to tank those delphic nukes.

            Guardian rune is OP. I think it was a mistake on the dev's part to make it an advanced rune. Still, it is only a 2 turn troll and has a long cd. Its hardly an "I win" button. Instead, if properly timed, they pop it right before your sylph delphic to tank what might otherwise be a one shot kill. As long as you're not a one trick pony, relying on your sylph delph to win every fight, that 2 turn troll is a minor annoyance. Its worst for knights, since they have it used against them, but can't use it themselves. From what I've seen though, knight's defense and HP allow them to tank pretty darn well without it (this varies by build, of course). In PvE, when fighting buffed bosses (later floor spire bosses), I pop guardian rune to tank as many hits as a knight can...and while I'm tanking those hits, I'm also spamming heal to keep that knight alive longer and saving the spire shield rune for when my sylph is ready and I can dps.

            I should also mention, mage is the only class that has no good delphic. Archer's DDS is nerfed by Influence, but so is mage Delphic Hell Thunderer and DHT has a lower stun chance to start with. Knights have lots of skills that suck and quickly become obsolete, but at least their delphics are actually good for something. Mage delphics are all aoes, only one has a random chance to do anything useful, and in arena (the one place where aoe delphic is useful), mages are wanted more for our heal spam than for dps. I experimented to see if DHT was a good support skill in dragon invasion (where HP shield lets you survive the 1 hit troll). Wouldn't it be great if mages could reliably protect party members with that HP shield chance from DHT? It doesn't work well, unfortunately. The shield proc is luck based and not all that common. Out of 100 tries, I managed to get shield to proc 10 times and only twice did that shield actually protect the person who got nailed by the troll hit. If the hit did more dps, would still be worth it, but 100 rage for a skill that does not do as much damage as 2 thunderers (rage cost 50, so far, the only decent single target dps move mages have) just wasn't worth it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GingerTheHutt View Post
              How can you nerf mage healing in PvP, and retain the same skill levels in PvE...

              Surely you either nerf everywhere, or you don't nerf at all...

              Me thinks, you realise that if they nerfed the healing everywhere, your MPD attempts would no longer be so easy...
              I made some suggestions in my opening post as to how it can be done. Simply add the amount of talent points needed to max out their skills. Mages can still retain a pure heal spec or a pure dps spec for PvE and a hybrid heal/dps spec for PvP, however with more points needed to max out their heal skills, the heals wouldn't be as strong or crit for as much as they do now.

              In any other mmo, you never see the heal classes able to dish out a lot of damage and also heal a ton of damage in the same spec, it's overpowered and it leads to class imbalance. Class imbalance leads to everyone flocking to the most overpowered class for pvp. Which in turn leads to mass-exodus of the other classes from the game and eventually all you will see playing this game will be mages.

              Now I've invested a lot of time and money into this game.... Who's going to sink more money into a game where they feel they have no chance against a certain job-type/class in pvp? Who's going to feel it's worth their time to level something up when they know that they have no chance against an equal BR player of a different class? No, they're going to leave and go find something else to play. And all that time and money that I and other knights and archers have invested into the game, completely wasted because we should've rolled a mage to have an equal shot in pvp.
              Last edited by OhBummer; 03-17-2015, 11:17 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by OhBummer View Post
                I made some suggestions in my opening post as to how it can be done. Simply add the amount of talent points needed to max out their skills. Mages can still retain a pure heal spec or a pure dps spec for PvE and a hybrid heal/dps spec for PvP, however with more points needed to max out their heal skills, the heals wouldn't be as strong or crit for as much as they do now.
                Originally posted by OhBummer View Post
                I would propose this:
                either,
                1. Divide their talent tree so that they can either choose healing or damage but not both. This can be accomplished simply by adding the amount of talent points needed to max out these abilities.
                or...
                2. Allow knight and archer slowing abilities like deep freeze to work again in pvp.
                1. The mage tree already is divided.

                The upper half is damage and the lower is heal. If you want to force a 'chose from one of the side division' only: I would expect them to put a similar thing across all classes. You'd also have to give a mage more skills, as if a mage decides to go healing, you remove the only rage gain capability for mages as it's a top half skill and healing is bottom side. Neither knights or archers are reliant upon a single skill for rage gain in quite the same way.

                For this to work: you'd have to reduce mage skill point acquisition, or increase the number of points the mage skills require. Generate more mage skills. All in all, thiss would be a hefty nerf to every mage build, as such, you'd suffer in MPD's. Swinging the balance further away from mages in my opinion, than your perceived advantages they currently have.

                2. As far as I understand Deep Freeze and slow effects do work in PvP: just only against auto attacks. However, I'm not sure what that would achieve, aside from making Puri a more useful skill in PvP. Admittedly that would remove the potential of a heal skill from the skill bar.
                Originally posted by CreamySaucepan
                You are just a freakozoid... Monster of Frankenstein meets Jabba the Hutt... Frabba the Huttstein... :P
                Originally posted by CreamySaucepan
                Behind every fat Space Slug is a blood thirsty sociopath urging it on.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by KS222 View Post
                  So much complaining. Many players have already listed the disadvantages of being a mage. The fact is the devs have bestowed upon every class a way to survive. Mages got heals. Heals can be countered, just like every other class survival tactic. Rather than whining and demanding the game adapt to you, start bringing a way to counter heals if they cause you so much grief.

                  Personally, my preferred counter to heals is dps. I could use chaos, but its luck based and I hate having to rely on something that can troll me. I could use Hades/Gaia for its heal nerf skill. I prefer to use Cerberus or Hercules in 1 vs 1 because they both possess high single target dps, making up for my class weakness. I go patk when I'm mostly fighting other mages. I go matk when mostly fighting archers/knights. I don't demand that knight's natural pdef and high HP be nerfed just because my main sylph is a patk sylph. Instead, I adapt. If I'm fighting a lot of knights, I bring a sylph to better nuke knights. In bonus time, with those nice defensive debuffs my sylphs have, its pretty darn hard to tank those delphic nukes.

                  Guardian rune is OP. I think it was a mistake on the dev's part to make it an advanced rune. Still, it is only a 2 turn troll and has a long cd. Its hardly an "I win" button. Instead, if properly timed, they pop it right before your sylph delphic to tank what might otherwise be a one shot kill. As long as you're not a one trick pony, relying on your sylph delph to win every fight, that 2 turn troll is a minor annoyance. Its worst for knights, since they have it used against them, but can't use it themselves. From what I've seen though, knight's defense and HP allow them to tank pretty darn well without it (this varies by build, of course). In PvE, when fighting buffed bosses (later floor spire bosses), I pop guardian rune to tank as many hits as a knight can...and while I'm tanking those hits, I'm also spamming heal to keep that knight alive longer and saving the spire shield rune for when my sylph is ready and I can dps.

                  I should also mention, mage is the only class that has no good delphic. Archer's DDS is nerfed by Influence, but so is mage Delphic Hell Thunderer and DHT has a lower stun chance to start with. Knights have lots of skills that suck and quickly become obsolete, but at least their delphics are actually good for something. Mage delphics are all aoes, only one has a random chance to do anything useful, and in arena (the one place where aoe delphic is useful), mages are wanted more for our heal spam than for dps. I experimented to see if DHT was a good support skill in dragon invasion (where HP shield lets you survive the 1 hit troll). Wouldn't it be great if mages could reliably protect party members with that HP shield chance from DHT? It doesn't work well, unfortunately. The shield proc is luck based and not all that common. Out of 100 tries, I managed to get shield to proc 10 times and only twice did that shield actually protect the person who got nailed by the troll hit. If the hit did more dps, would still be worth it, but 100 rage for a skill that does not do as much damage as 2 thunderers (rage cost 50, so far, the only decent single target dps move mages have) just wasn't worth it.
                  1. Mages got heals. Heals can be countered, No, unless you have a massive BR advantage over the mage and even then, it's a long drawn out fight.

                  2. Personally, my preferred counter to heals is dps. And just how much dps would I need to counter a 300k restoration crit heal and a 500k blessed light crit heal and suntora?

                  3. Guardian rune is OP. Yes it is.. so please tell me why do mages need this AND heal rune when they already get 3 massive heal abilities?

                  4. I should also mention, mage is the only class that has no good delphic. I think most people know that two back to back Thunderers at 50 rage consumption with 220% damage and no cooldown is much better than one delphic sniper at 80 rage consumption and 280% damage on a 60 second cooldown and a 378%, 100 rage consumption 60 second cooldown enhanced delphic destroyer that knights get. So if you want to compare I'd say mages have a slight advantage here as well...
                  Last edited by OhBummer; 03-17-2015, 12:09 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by OhBummer View Post
                    1. Mages got heals. Heals can be countered, No, unless you have a massive BR advantage over the mage and even then, it's a long drawn out fight.

                    2. Personally, my preferred counter to heals is dps. And just how much dps would I need to counter a 300k restoration crit heal and a 500k blessed light crit heal and suntora?

                    3. Guardian rune is OP. Yes it is.. so please tell me why do mages need this AND heal rune when they already get 3 massive heal abilities?

                    4. I should also mention, mage is the only class that has no good delphic. I think most people know that two back to back Thunderers at 50 rage consumption with 220% damage and no cooldown is much better than one delphic sniper at 80 rage consumption and 280% damage on a 60 second cooldown and a 378%, 100 rage consumption 60 second cooldown enhanced delphic destroyer that knights get. So if you want to compare I'd say mages have a slight advantage here as well...
                    Heals are already countered by the 50+% dmg increase over time. Also if a mage uses his round to heal, he deals 0 (zero) damage, meaning you get a free round of doing whatever you want.
                    Complaining about guardian rune is silly. It works the exact same way for all classes.
                    Thunderer is our only good single target dps spell. Let me repeat: We have ONE good damage spell.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Shirahago View Post
                      Complaining about guardian rune is silly. It works the exact same way for all classes.
                      Beside the fact that knights can't have one....

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Shirahago View Post
                        Heals are already countered by the 50+% dmg increase over time. Also if a mage uses his round to heal, he deals 0 (zero) damage, meaning you get a free round of doing whatever you want.
                        Complaining about guardian rune is silly. It works the exact same way for all classes.
                        Thunderer is our only good single target dps spell. Let me repeat: We have ONE good damage spell.
                        I disagree on all your points as:
                        1. The 50% damage increase works both ways for both the mage and her or his opponent.

                        2. Knight's don't get a guardian rune, hence it doesn't work the same for all classes.

                        3. Icebolt is also a very good single target mage dps spell and actually does more damage than archers' armor pierce skill. However, most mages won't put this on their bar, opting rather to take thunderer as well as 1 aoe and 3 heals - suntora, restoration, and blessed light. So ultimately, mages could have 5 good single target damage spells and it wouldn't matter because each would rather choose the aforementioned spec/bar setup.

                        Anyone else have any other arguments for me to shoot down??? I've got my finger on the trigger and I'm a damn good shot
                        Last edited by OhBummer; 03-17-2015, 01:13 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Take away the ability to crit heal ( no more runaway op heal )
                          in exchange take away knight and archer passive 20 % hp and take away knight crit reduce damage reduce and archer crit passive damage increase ( no more runaway hp increase runaway damage reduce and runaway damage increase by crits )

                          WE HAVE A DEAL

                          try shooting that down

                          Just becoz u cannot see how many hp increase by knights and archers
                          or see how many damage is reduce or how crit reduce % change to work by knights
                          or how many damage is increase by crits by archers

                          IN NUMBER does not mean its not a runaway thingy u ppl so call
                          take away everything that increase by % with static increase

                          U have a deal

                          WHAT ? u cannot take away that ? it defines what a knight is what an archer is ?????

                          Cupcakes

                          HEALING defines mages

                          SO seriously TRY TO SHOOT IT DOWN
                          Last edited by EsmeWeatherwax; 03-17-2015, 04:08 PM. Reason: post merge

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                          • Originally posted by Xeptone
                            HEALING defines mages

                            SO seriously TRY TO SHOOT IT DOWN
                            bloc defined knight and bloc heal was nerfed too

                            Comment


                            • The only trouble is MAGE + GUARDIAN RUNE

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                              • Originally posted by Xeptone View Post
                                Take away the ability to crit heal ( no more runaway op heal )
                                in exchange take away knight and archer passive 20 % hp and take away knight crit reduce damage reduce and archer crit passive damage increase ( no more runaway hp increase runaway damage reduce and runaway damage increase by crits )

                                WE HAVE A DEAL

                                try shooting that down
                                If you want them to take away our passives then they should remove the healing and mdef boost mages have also
                                IGN: princestewii
                                Class: Archer
                                Server: Kabam 86

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