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Runaway Mage Healing

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  • Originally posted by OhBummer View Post
    So ultimately, mages could have 5 good single target damage spells and it wouldn't matter because each would rather choose the aforementioned spec/bar setup.

    Anyone else have any other arguments for me to shoot down??? I've got my finger on the trigger and I'm a damn good shot
    Yeah... Mages only have 3 single target spells total... 1 of which is an advanced lvl 80 skill.

    so uh... you missed the bullseye. hard luck.
    Originally posted by CreamySaucepan
    You are just a freakozoid... Monster of Frankenstein meets Jabba the Hutt... Frabba the Huttstein... :P
    Originally posted by CreamySaucepan
    Behind every fat Space Slug is a blood thirsty sociopath urging it on.

    Comment


    • Whoops, I forgot about knights not being able to use guardian rune. My bad.

      The 50%+ dmg increase however is still valid, as heals do not get increased.
      Your point about 5 single target spells is just flat out wrong.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by OhBummer View Post
        I disagree on all your points as:
        1. The 50% damage increase works both ways for both the mage and her or his opponent.

        2. Knight's don't get a guardian rune, hence it doesn't work the same for all classes.

        3. Icebolt is also a very good single target mage dps spell and actually does more damage than archers' armor pierce skill. However, most mages won't put this on their bar, opting rather to take thunderer as well as 1 aoe and 3 heals - suntora, restoration, and blessed light. So ultimately, mages could have 5 good single target damage spells and it wouldn't matter because each would rather choose the aforementioned spec/bar setup.

        Anyone else have any other arguments for me to shoot down??? I've got my finger on the trigger and I'm a damn good shot
        1) The attack boost works both ways, but when your book is loaded with heals rather than dps, you have fewer skills available to actually kill your enemy. Big heals do less good when the opponent is tearing through your HP faster. Overheals don't give us anything extra; they don't even refill HP pot.

        2) Knights don't get guardian rune. That's something I've already agreed isn't really fair; if you're going to exclude knights, then the rune should not be an advanced rune. However, knights are also very tanky without it. I run with high BR knights (near my BR and higher) and they tank as well without guardian rune as I do with it. Also, guardian rune is only 2 turns. That is a fairly short duration rune. Chaos lasts longer and is a more annoying troll, especially in arena.

        3) Have you ever used Icebolt? Its on par with meteor for damage, but it doesn't have a talent associated with it to give it a useful secondary ability. In PvP, I favor meteor over Icebolt because many do still bring chaos to the fight. Lots of people like to start with chaos. Having 2 aoes allows me to wipe out troops faster so I can dps the opponent. There is now an advanced talent that increases Icebolt's damage by a %; that might make it more useful than meteor when the talent is maxed; will have to wait and see.

        You're essentially whining about the skill that mages were given as our survival tactic. Archers and knights have their own survival tactics and passives to help them out. Heals are ours.

        You asked how much dps it takes to out dps a 500k heal. When I fight a mage near my BR, I can do 50-100k with thunderer (depending on resistance and defense). That's easy to heal spam away, but once they heal spam it, now they have roughly 30 sec cd before they can use that heal again. In bonus time, the damage from my thunderer goes up, but their heal can still heal no more than to full HP; the overflow doesn't get to refill their HP as they take more damage. In a close fight, by 100 - 200% time, my ability to keep the pressure on with thunderer and meteor starts to really show. Their heal spam can't keep up. Now, throw sylph into the equation. I tend to bring a dps sylph to the fight and I like to let the opponent transform first. I have very solid defense for my BR and I built that way because there is significant advantage in being able to tank some sylph hits while unsylphed. What that lets me do to heal spammers is I will be in sylph form with delphic ready when they are out of sylph points. Nail them with defense debuff and then follow with delphic while they are unsylphed (by then its 50% bonus time) and I usually do 500-700k damage. That's enough to 1 shot a lot of them from full HP.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Shirahago View Post
          Whoops, I forgot about knights not being able to use guardian rune. My bad.

          The 50%+ dmg increase however is still valid, as heals do not get increased.
          Your point about 5 single target spells is just flat out wrong.
          The heals based on attack DO increase. However, you can't heal more than full HP, so that increase is somewhat nerfed.

          He didn't say we "have" 5 single target spells. He said we "could have" 5 good single target spells and would choose heal spam instead. I know its semantics, but the word "could" makes it hypothetical rather than statement of fact.

          Regardless, I am a mage and I prefer to take more dps than heals. I don't bring sun or BL with me for 1 vs 1. I find having more dps lets me win more fights and gives me faster wins.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by benoooo View Post
            The only trouble is MAGE + GUARDIAN RUNE
            Guardian rune is annoying whether its used by mage or archer. The rune is short duration though. The worst they can do to you is pop it after you cue your delphic. If they mistime the rune use, then you can wait it out and let it nerf your weaker hits. What I see is a lot of players get greedy for fast kills and try to just pour on the damage as fast as they can without paying attention to runes and debuffs. If people are going to be stupid and waste their hardest hits while the rune is up, that's their fault. 2 turns of super defense is a brief troll, not an insurmountable obstacle.

            Comment


            • There is one thing that could be interesting...though i know things wont change in any case, but just saying ^^

              What if, skills of the same type had a cooldown similar to runes, for example, casting restoration would trigger a 15-20s cd on BL, and vice versa? Ofc, this would apply to more than heals, in the end, but just what if?

              On the issue at hand...I dont think a 3 heal build is actually viable to carry if one intends to do anything other than stall...you either lose out on damage via thunderer, or you lose out on not bringing an aoe

              Comment


              • Interesting idea, but how would they decide what is and isn't same type? For instance, restoration and BL are both heals based on attack, easy to say same type. Suntoria is a heal, but its over time and based on % HP. Does that make it same type or different? The most difficult part of implementing it would be finding a way to break it down into categories without leaving classes skill locked (unable to do anything but auto and rage gen because all their attacks are considered the same "type").

                A 3 heal build is generally only viable if you fight only those substantially weaker than you. I see people do it. They lead with chaos and cast sun first turn. They count on you to kill your troops for them. If you hit them hard, they spam heal. If you do negligible damage, they use thunderer and lightning. You can almost always tell when they plan to sylph because they heal right before transforming. Generally, their heal spam is not effective in winning the fight unless they are just that much stronger than you. Even then, they would win faster (and get more wins) if they brought more dps along.

                I go full heal only as a porcupine defense when someone I can't beat decides they want to farm me in fire temple. Troll someone with a 5-10 minute fight and they'll generally find someone else to attack. The porcupine defense has led to a win only once, and that was luck + dryads; crit thunderer in 300% time one shot the guy.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Xeptone View Post
                  Take away the ability to crit heal ( no more runaway op heal )
                  in exchange take away knight and archer passive 20 % hp and take away knight crit reduce damage reduce and archer crit passive damage increase ( no more runaway hp increase runaway damage reduce and runaway damage increase by crits )

                  WE HAVE A DEAL

                  try shooting that down

                  Just becoz u cannot see how many hp increase by knights and archers
                  or see how many damage is reduce or how crit reduce % change to work by knights
                  or how many damage is increase by crits by archers

                  IN NUMBER does not mean its not a runaway thingy u ppl so call
                  take away everything that increase by % with static increase

                  U have a deal

                  WHAT ? u cannot take away that ? it defines what a knight is what an archer is ?????

                  Cupcakes

                  HEALING defines mages

                  SO seriously TRY TO SHOOT IT DOWN
                  Honestly, I couldn't understand very much of what you wrote here, no offense. But it sounds to me like you're using the "knights and archers get 20% more health and/or 10% more crit, therefore mages need 3 OP heals on their bar to win the battle" argument which has been hashed and re-hashed so many times before. I'll say it again: this argument falls short on so many levels it's almost comical.

                  Comment


                  • But our heals are not OP to begin with.

                    Anyway I tested this a few times so my results are not conclusive but I heal +- the same amount in 50%+ time as I do without it. The game tells you that >damage gets increased by x% but that wouldn't be the first time the game tells us something wrong.
                    Suntoria will always heal the same no matter what overtime is it too.
                    The overtime benefit for damage is much higher than it is for healing, especially if we take sylphs into account.

                    Also we could have 5 good single target damage spells but we don't, that's why there's no reason to bring it up in this context.

                    Heals is what makes our class different from others. If it gets nerfed or even removed without replacement we will just be a weak copy of knights/archers.
                    Last edited by Shirahago; 03-17-2015, 06:53 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GingerTheHutt View Post
                      Yeah... Mages only have 3 single target spells total... 1 of which is an advanced lvl 80 skill.

                      so uh... you missed the bullseye. hard luck.
                      Nope sorry... you either misunderstood or deliberately misquoted me. What I said was: Mages have a single target dps skill called Ice Bolt that does more damage than archers' armor pierce ability. Therefore they don't have just one good single target spell as previously posted by someone. But it wouldnt matter anyway because even if mages had 5 good single target spells, they wouldnt use them just like they don't use Ice Bolt because they would rather have Lightning bolt (rage builder) Thunderer (single target dps) Fireball (AoE)/or suntora (HoT) and of course blessed light (heal) and restoration (heal). So you could have 5 or even 10 good single target spells and it wouldn't matter because in PvP, you would choose the aforementioned spec. Hopefully you understood that this time because I really hate repeating myself

                      Comment


                      • errr

                        as u grow stronger ur attack grow stronger too >>> crit passive work more for archer
                        as u grow more hp the more shield bubble can take before broken the more the hp passive of 20 % adds on to knights and archer

                        100 k >> add 20 k hp total 20 k to shield bubble
                        that's what I mean runaway

                        OP HEAL what op heal ? op heal is only when mage crit heal
                        so take that away no problem mage still only heals like 150 k without crit every 29 sec with restoration

                        But in exchange take away those passive from archer and knights

                        BY THE WAY U NOTICE I NEVER SAY TAKE AWAY THE PDEF PASSIVE OF KNIGHTS AND ARCHERS
                        so dun ram me with take away mdef passive of mages

                        U want to retify the problem of healing so do it
                        Dun mess this up with guardian rune since archer are able to use it too

                        Comment


                        • You wouldn't need to repeat yourself if you had a good point.

                          Just because Ice Bolt deals more damage than Armor Pierce doesn't mean it's good. It's an alright spell but it's not doing anything we couldn't do before except slightly more base damage in exchange for having no aoe.
                          Last edited by Shirahago; 03-17-2015, 10:45 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by OhBummer View Post
                            Honestly, I couldn't understand very much of what you wrote here, no offense. But it sounds to me like you're using the "knights and archers get 20% more health and/or 10% more crit, therefore mages need 3 OP heals on their bar to win the battle" argument which has been hashed and re-hashed so many times before. I'll say it again: this argument falls short on so many levels it's almost comical.
                            Strawman argument. Rephrase what the person said into something you consider already dis-proven, then disregard everything they said because in your mind its already been proven wrong.

                            If heal spam is so OP, great, amazing, awesome, a truly insurmountable winning stroke, why do we not have bgs and fire temples full of Triton users? Seriously now. You are complaining about OP heals, but everyone has access to OP heals; go crit and use Triton, OP heals shall be yours! Think about it. Anyone can have OP heals, regardless of class, but they choose not to. Why do so many pass up this amazing opportunity to wield this supposedly ever so OP weapon of massive, crazy heals?

                            As I've already stated, I'm a mage and I go light on heals. Heal spam extends the fight but does not win it. Bringing the extra dps tips the balance in my favor when I fight mages who go max heal instead. The only time I go massive heal is for porcupine defense when being farmed by a stronger player. I find those 5-10 minute long troll fights to be highly effective for discouraging further attacks.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Shirahago View Post
                              You wouldn't need to repeat yourself if you had a good point.

                              Just because Ice Bolt deals more damage than Armor Pierce doesn't mean it's good. It's an alright spell but it's not doing anything we couldn't do before except slightly more base damage in exchange for having no aoe.
                              Armor Piercer deals a stacking pdef debuff and has a shorter cd. There is also a talent to reduce its rage cost (random proc when using MS) and a talent to give guaranteed crit (random proc when using AP). Icebolt may have higher base damage stat, but it is nowhere near as good as AP. Give Icebolt a stacking debuff and then maybe you'd see mages using it more. As is, it does damage roughly on par with meteor, but lacks the chance for random heal that meteor talent gives. It also lacks the talent to reduce cd, so is less spammable. With mage's slower rage gain, many prefer to save for thunderer rather than blowing their rage on icebolt instead. I bring it with me for PvE dps races and for world boss, but find it of less value than meteor in PvP.

                              Comment


                              • There is a lot stuff which i think its annoying about other Classes too but instead of crying and make some ( not all ) non sense suggestions i deal with it....

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