Runaway Mage Healing

[OhBummer]

Something needs to be done about runaway mage healing in pvp. It is ridiculous, I knock them down to 10% health then they heal back to full with 1 huge heal or 2 medium (non-crit) heals before sylph mode. Then I knock them down to 20% or so health while in sylph mode and they shift out of sylph early, heal back up to full again and then for whatever more damage I do in sylph they heal up again. You guys need to do something about this. It's the reason my brother and so many other friends have quit the game. I would propose this:
either,
1. Divide their talent tree so that they can either choose healing or damage but not both. This can be accomplished simply by adding the amount of talent points needed to max out these abilities.
or...
2. Allow knight and archer slowing abilities like deep freeze to work again in pvp.

[Eskendal]

I call ** on that. Everyone complained Knights were too weak the first year of Wartune. Until the first launch of Sylphs (when Iris was just pure Evil since there was no Eve or AQ) in conjunction with HPs getting really high due to the 20% Bonus and Sylph HP Applying as well the Defensive Fate Skill to go along with Brutal Edge - that's when Knight's started to rule the PvP roost. If Block-Heal wasn't nerfed very few would be playing anything else.

Wartune started in Sept 2012. Block Heal was nerfed at the height of the Knight class in August 2014 in the 3.1 Patch. It was 2 years into the game when a high-end knight was block-healing 150k free HP before awakening.

That's my personal experience, maybe things were different for you. And no, I wasn't talking about patch 3.1 and Triton.

[SlowPlay]

@Fufu, without electro dim against 120/130k hercules knight can't tank, we need to go pet with our opponent and this will get worse since sylph will get stronger (not on pet i get 200k hit while i get 80/100k if i'm on pet form, this mean my shield can take a hit and some more damage if i'm on pet while it get removed on 1st hit if i'm not on pet form.

@Zorich when did i talk about speed cast? Unless you're sayin we should let opponent double hit us, i'm talking about 1 turn each player, awaken remove 1 turn, 3 turn left of apollo while opponent is on pet form too and at this point 1 turn is taken by a rune (that could be amne if i'm still full hp or heal rune after 2 hit taken to avoid getting killed by delphic), about dealing with mage restore, as i said at the begin of this thread i don't care of mage restore, it's just a waste of time sometime and ofc if both player survive after awaken point goes to 0 mage win but overall against same br mage we just both wait pet to do damage since the damage i do is overhealed by suntoria and opponent damage is overhealed by heal rune/shield, about chaos, sadly it doesn't work for me and i started to use amnesia but it's still buggy and last only 2 turn instead of the 3 turn it should last (i don't know the timing yet that let you stun the opponent if you have luck), about triton, just oneshotted 2 orange triton tonight, one of a mage 590k br (i'm 610k) and the other was a knight 580k or so, you can't have always stacked electro res because sooner or later you'll run out of electro dim so dimension+triton is not the way to go.

Once again about mage heal, it'd bother me if pet were just a split part of pvp and not the whole pvp because healing from nearly dead to full hp is annoying but if a mage heal 100/150k damage it's nothing, suntoria is actually more annoyin if a mage use it right.

[Zorich]

This game is about 2.5 years old. Knights were OP for about 3-4 months (because of block) around the first year of Wartune. Things are a lot different now lol

I call ** on that. Everyone complained Knights were too weak the first year of Wartune. Until the first launch of Sylphs (when Iris was just pure Evil since there was no Eve or AQ) in conjunction with HPs getting really high due to the 20% Bonus and Sylph HP Applying as well the Defensive Fate Skill to go along with Brutal Edge - that's when Knight's started to rule the PvP roost. If Block-Heal wasn't nerfed very few would be playing anything else.

Wartune started in Sept 2012. Block Heal was nerfed at the height of the Knight class in August 2014 in the 3.1 Patch. It was 2 years into the game when a high-end knight was block-healing 150k free HP before awakening.

[Tranc3motion]

Ok, we get it, mages are awesome and some of you even think we're OP. We, mages, think we're awesome too. We're going to stop pretending that we're weak and you should stop pretending threads like this will change anything.

But, good point Zorich. You guys should really go watch a mage cw video by Elia. Most battles end when someone dies, and both players rarely survive the entire time.

[Eskendal]

This game is about 2.5 years old. Knights were OP for about 3-4 months (because of block) around the first year of Wartune. Things are a lot different now lol

[Zorich]

This whole reply is dumb, wraith point was that apollo doesn't last 4 turn while on pet mode but it's a 2 turn top and noone is gonna use delphic in the first 2 turn so it's pretty much useless.

Actually, it does. Are you really this thick? DO NOT SPEED CAST! It lasts 4 turns.

If you're going to complain that the fast-action awaken during skill completion reduces your Apollo from 4 to 3 rounds, then any Mage or Archer should have the EXACT same argument that their Guardian is really only 1 Round. Because if our enemy stops speed-cast and we don't after we pop it, then it only covers 1 attack!

As a player in this game, it is your job to develop a working strategy within the game's parameters. Find a better strategy! Carry Amnesia and try to take away Guardian. At L10 you've got about a 65% chance of removing it for 3 turns. Carry Chaos and steal a Resto. *gasp* Use a PET that has a 30% HP Shield and broken Critical Heals. Use a Pet that has a slow-cast 30% Damage Boost (draws out the Apollo if you're locked into a pattern) and a 500 Awaken Pt Steal that forces your enemy to use the Delphic right away (while Apollo is still up) or lose it. Just do something different rather than complaining and not changing your tactics. There's tons of ways to counter Guardian Runes and Mage's "OP" Healing. We know this because we have learned to do so in CW against each other. You need to make the effort and learn it yourself.

It's ok guys that you don't agree with me, but please, play a knight for more than 10 min. after we can talk, thank you.

I both have my own Knight that I've started fresh and now have to L80, working through Adv Ranks & Skills. I'd also picked up running a L80 (top-100 X-Server in R2) Knight for about 6 months in 2014.

There was a point, before said Knight came back, that I was doing more PvP (BG / Arena) with his character than my own because it was that much better - and we were about the same BR.

[FufuBunnySlayer]

DR Talents / Astrals / Medal bonuses aren't on stacks. It's x% DR and then y% DR of what's left and then z% Dr of what's left. I remember seeing a forumla a while back that showed the max "effective" DR one could achieve as a Mage was 50.2% - which is big, don't get me wrong. But the PvP Medal alone gives back a 40% Damage Boost in PvP that stacks with (not taken separately from) Deter and/or EWD damage. I've generally considered that PvP esentially washes out Damage Boost vs. Damage Reduction when all is said and done.

In any event, I'll give you a 40% Medal Damage buff partially offsetting the 50.2% DR Chain and thus reduce my #s by 10% and say it's an extra 14k damage per hit being taken instead of 15.7k. Still not enough to make Crit even remotely worthwhile for the defensive loss.

Fair point on the wash of atk/def multipliers, just saw your outrageous numbers and felt need to comment. I still feel taking 14k additional per hit against knight/archer is an overestimate unless you have data, in addition to math, to back you up; namely because the math in this game never seems to work how we assume it does.

50.2% might have been an accurate max number long ago, but it isn't now. Astral refine (and need I mention dimensions) have upped that number. Currently you have 14%, 40%, 90% as the available max multipliers. Not to mention medal (not sure what the highest % of that is tbh). But just those 3 values give you a DR of almost 95%. A DR value of 90% for res is only really viable currently because of how it is bugged, but there are a few crazies who pump res that high (would need about 1800 for higher tier play currently). I've calculated my DR and it should be in the 67% range (14% talent, 38% GB, ~20% res, 24% medal) without any crazy res antics.

Zorich i did explain in another thread that it's a suicide move for a knight to wait/delay the use of apollo and shield and tank while opponent on pet, apollo is a 2 turn 30% reduction which is never in any case up against opponent delphic. About dim, ur lucky dude, i only got a basic dim essence today out of i think 8 basic, 13 int and 7 adv chest.

I disagree with you on this point. Not going to explain how, knights give me enough trouble as it is.

And yeah, Zorich is very very lucky with dimensions, especially ones of useful types. My expert dimension is light, which kinda sucks but it could be worse. Feel like the usefulness of dimensions goes electro > dark > fire > light >> water > wind. Now, he's found 3/4 (!). That's pretty amazing. A buddy on my server has found 2, and that's the most I'd heard of before now (I consider him lucky, too--he found one dark and one electro).

As for the amounts of adv and int, that's not really impressive or anomalous, but expert is. That said, you can stack res with 5 ints (if you can find and own 5 of the same kind at the same time).

[Eskendal]

About guardian rune, yes, it doesn't always work on time, but still works a lot better/often than appolo's shield. % is a lot higher too.

About the strategy, I don't even use appolo's shield in battleground, it was just an example to show that it's not that useful.

About dimensions, I did about 6 intermediates and a lot basics. Never found any advanced or expert. I can only activate 3 dimensions using vip cards from fishing but that's not a problem for me. Out of the 6 intermediate dimensions, I got 2 wind, 2 fire and 2 light. Not really useful. I could save all my basic electro or dark dimensions and use them in CW or important events, but, still I don't sit on a lot of dimensions. Not sure a lot of players have a lot of dark/electro dimensions of advanced or expert quality.

I know I'm not the best player, I know I might not have the best tactic, but, I fought a lot in battleground and flame temple, and, I know what knights can or can't do. You come up with all those stats and %, it's fine but, when I play, it's another story. I don't even say knights are that bad but, it's annoying when I feel like we have 2 strikes against us even before starting a fight vs mage (I know the rock, paper, scissors system, but, it's not like this anymore). Also, most people don't have 3 maxed sylphs, so, we can't just switch to another element to counter people having high resistances. Not complaining (maybe a little), just saying, trying to counter mages with your ideas is not always possible.

[SlowPlay]

Zorich i did explain in another thread that it's a suicide move for a knight to wait/delay the use of apollo and shield and tank while opponent on pet, apollo is a 2 turn 30% reduction which is never in any case up against opponent delphic. About dim, ur lucky dude, i only got a basic dim essence today out of i think 8 basic, 13 int and 7 adv chest.

[Zorich]

Can you quickly use guardian rune before any Delphic? Yes. Can you use appolo's shield right before any Delphic? No. I have no clue why people still trying to compare those 2 things. Not to mention, mages/archers can cast guardian rune when they want, us knights? No.

No actually we can't always use Guardian Rune before any Delphic. Not when it's a quick-cast Delphic in speed-cast. That's why the Gaia, Cerberus and Hercules can give Guardian Shield users problems. If you're speed casting along with your opponent, you will not have time to always squeeze that Guardian Rune in before the Delphic if you wait for it. That's why you have to get familiar with people's patterns, or just common patterns and time it.

Can you hold a Chaos to steal our Sunto / Resto and/or BL right as we call them to cast before that first awakening? Yes - as long as you're not in the midst of casting a Delphic. Can we Puri the effect after it's on us? No. We have two more rounds that our only heal option is a Heal Rune, usually after we've just topped you off.

Can we pop Guardian at will when it's on CD because we had to use our Heal Rune in light of a Knight jacking our Resto? No.

Ok, going to wait until my opponent morph, after going to wait until he cast Delphic, after, going to cast appolo's shield, oh wait, appolo's shield has one long casting time? Wait what opponent use Delphic before I use appolo's shield, what kind of sorcery is this! Oh and, yeah using the morph function to do weak damages and waste one turn on your appolo's shield, really useful.

There are 3 things wrong with that strategy. I'm not going to bother correcting you, but I'd have a field day with a knight using that pattern against me. And your "weak damages" that "waste a turn" is the equivalent of our standard attack. That should show you how much less damage a Mage does than a Knight outside of awakening. Your alternating Rage-Gaining attacks average out to over 150% Damage attacks w/ the QTE. Ours is 110%. So pardon me if I'm not exactly sympathetic to you getting a free 100% damage attack and it being viewed as a waste of a round of your Apollo.

About dimensions, I only have basics, so, I don't live in this casher world, so, those solutions only work for like 10% of the players lol

Don't know what you define as "this casher world" as it pertains to Dimensions - but I've never bought a Dimension. I don't use BB to get extra movement in Dims unless I've popped it from chests within either. My 2-month old Alt, a completely free (not even VIP) L80 Knight, who can't yet clear an Adv Dimension, has an Adv Dimension in Inventory as well as 5 Intermediate and like a dozen Basics - that is just from cycling Basic Dims until the last 2 weeks when I was able to clear an Int with him.

[Astroglide]

No the whole point of the game is mages should have every unfair advantage and be near immortal with even a poor build.

[Eskendal]

It's ok guys that you don't agree with me, but please, play a knight for more than 10 min. after we can talk, thank you.

[SlowPlay]

Zorich, cya in 30 days when those dimension expire If you have the luck to drop dimension from chest doesn't mean everyone has, for example i got so far 1 expert from 2 advanced i did, no advanced dropped, no advanced from int in the last 2 month since drop was nerfed. So yeah, gl keeping res that high

Also

Awaken is an attack. It's a 100% Damage AoE attack. Sorry you're doing rage-gaining free damage and all. But I forget - a Knight's basic rage-gaining attacks are 132% (+25 Rage) and 150% +25% QTE (+10 Rage). Us lowly Mages are stuck with a 110% Attack for +18 Rage. So sorry if that free 100% Damage Attack that gets us back 12 Rage isn't pretty great for us when it's just an inconvenience for you. Jeez.

And what rune are you blindly using on awaken? Why not Apollo + Awaken and stay out of speed-cast. Remember, the Triton has extended awakening because they don't lose as many awakening pts. They get 2 extra moves, sometimes 1 in lag. You can still do all 7 Triton Attacks outside of speed cast. And the funny thing is that when someone is speed-casting and uses a Guardian and you're not speed casting, it only lasts long enough to protect against 1 attack. Remember that Guardian duration is for 2 actions by the caster, not 2 attacks from the defender.

I don't think having a default-rune maneuver on awaken is a good tactic outside of PvE. If you're not adjusting to your opponent on the fly, you're setting yourself up to take a loss.

And lastly - as a preemptive to daunapu - I have done this. This is not conjecture or speculation. This has been done and works, very well actually. My own alt Knight's Triton isn't fully outfitted yet, but I have done this repeatedly in BG with a friend's (at the time) 550k Knight. He's now 625k and has fully abandoned Hercules in PvP opting for Athena or Triton.

This whole reply is dumb, wraith point was that apollo doesn't last 4 turn while on pet mode but it's a 2 turn top and noone is gonna use delphic in the first 2 turn so it's pretty much useless.

[Eskendal]

Can you quickly use guardian rune before any Delphic? Yes. Can you use appolo's shield right before any Delphic? No. I have no clue why people still trying to compare those 2 things. Not to mention, mages/archers can cast guardian rune when they want, us knights? No. Ok, going to wait until my opponent morph, after going to wait until he cast Delphic, after, going to cast appolo's shield, oh wait, appolo's shield has one long casting time? Wait what opponent use Delphic before I use appolo's shield, what kind of sorcery is this! Oh and, yeah using the morph function to do weak damages and waste one turn on your appolo's shield, really useful. About dimensions, I only have basics, so, I don't live in this casher world, so, those solutions only work for like 10% of the players lol