Why is it that R2 and Kabam Staff dont listen to the Community

[P-J-J]

Neither. The english version is published as a partnership between R2 and ProC. It was ProC's decision to not have the auction house in the this version of Wartune.

So it is clear, publisher is ProCity/7road. I guessed it is this way as the behaviour of community team and support behave like reseller than like publisher with full power on product configuration. Including those forwarding messages from support (to higher department by your engineer, does it means you share the building and they are on upper floor?)

So to complete the picture:
2) Decision about new Sylph Arena format (design, not programming), is R2's or 7road's?

If R2's, they are value-added/customising reseller

3) Decision about 60,000 balens cost of fused sylphs, is R2's or 7road's?

If R2's, they are reseller, if not the new sylph arena is their decision

[MemoryLane]

Publisher here is R2 and ProC, but outside of specific content related things (like events, not including the auction house, and so on), that's where the relationship ends. 7Road is the development company that produces the original chinese version. The devs send the content in full chinese, the publishers localize it (ie, translate everything from chinese, extract the things we aren't using here, etc - R2 does the localization for Wartune here) and send that back to the devs. The devs add that into the game version as a patch, adjusting to compensate for systems they no longer support and any bug fixes they might have done since the last patch, and that's what we get for our updates.

Sylph Arena format would be the devs (7Road), as the code cannot be changed by the publisher.

The pricing on anything in the game is set by the devs, and adjusted to local pricing by the publisher. The prices in this english version are set using US based demographics in comparison to the original chinese pricing (accounting for the differences in cost of living, wage earnings, and similar markets). Based on the response I got when I asked about the absurd pricing for the fused sylphs (which is not forum appropriate so cannot be shared), I'm positive that price was not R2's idea.

[Meikura001]

ProCity? That's like 2 years ago I had heard about this on their splash page when I first played Wartune. When I saw 7Road, I would thought it changed hands or name.

[MemoryLane]

ProCity? That's like 2 years ago I had heard about this on their splash page when I first played Wartune. When I saw 7Road, I would thought it changed hands or name.

ProCity is the publisher for the other english wartune. The dev company has always been 7Road. 7Road has been bought and sold several times in the last 2 years, and they are not their own company anymore, but they are still the development studio that creates Wartune, in all its incarnations.

[AdaJames]

Publisher here is R2 and ProC, but outside of specific content related things (like events, not including the auction house, and so on), that's where the relationship ends. 7Road is the development company that produces the original chinese version. The devs send the content in full chinese, the publishers localize it (ie, translate everything from chinese, extract the things we aren't using here, etc - R2 does the localization for Wartune here) and send that back to the devs. The devs add that into the game version as a patch, adjusting to compensate for systems they no longer support and any bug fixes they might have done since the last patch, and that's what we get for our updates.

So the claim by R2 that it is a dev decision not to include auction house is a lie.

Sylph Arena format would be the devs (7Road), as the code cannot be changed by the publisher.

Agreed.

The pricing on anything in the game is set by the devs, and adjusted to local pricing by the publisher. The prices in this english version are set using US based demographics in comparison to the original chinese pricing (accounting for the differences in cost of living, wage earnings, and similar markets). Based on the response I got when I asked about the absurd pricing for the fused sylphs (which is not forum appropriate so cannot be shared), I'm positive that price was not R2's idea.

Bull. Anyone who tries to tell me that Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia and the like has a US style economy, standard of living, etc., is either a liar or living in Neverneverland, pure and simple.

[MemoryLane]

So the claim by R2 that it is a dev decision not to include auction house is a lie.




Agreed.



Bull. Anyone who tries to tell me that Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia and the like has a US style economy, standard of living, etc., is either a liar or living in Neverneverland, pure and simple.

Not exactly a lie. In a round about way, it's much, much simpler explanation. The devs won't send R2 the code for the auction house, which was intentionally removed because ProC doesn't want it. You can keep splitting hairs to find fault with R2 here if you really want to, but at the end of the day it's not going to matter, nor will it bring you an auction house.

Where did I say anything about South East Asia? I specifically said that the game's economics are based on US demographics.

[P-J-J]

So to summarize:

7road is the developer and publisher
Proficient City is the only distributor for English speaking countries, who is responsible for game configuration for English market
R2Games is then only reseller of Proficient City

Ada is right, if the prices are set for the U.S. market, they probably does not fit for Philippines, Albania or Honduras; so if R2Games distributes for example for European countries (as they pay different VAT there), there should be tuned price list for each of them, so let us know where can we see prices for Bulgaria, Italy, Poland etc? And as Proficient City has rights to English market and has EU subsidiary, is R2Games authorized also for EU market with same prices?

[MemoryLane]

R2 is also the publisher. It is a partnership, and both partners need to agree on the content.

The prices are set based on the US demographic. You pay for virtual currency that has been set to US Dollars. You pay whatever exchange rates and taxes that apply to your locality, based on your local laws, which has nothing to do with the ingame prices.

[P-J-J]

R2 is also the publisher. It is a partnership, and both partners need to agree on the content.

The prices are set based on the US demographic. You pay for virtual currency that has been set to US Dollars. You pay whatever exchange rates and taxes that apply to your locality, based on your local laws, which has nothing to do with the ingame prices.

Dear MemoryLane,

let us speak about responsibility again (titles are nice, but we need to find the content):

Publisher is responsible for clone content configuration, Distributor has limited rights from publisher (still 7road/ChangYou at the moment), can only subtract from available options and postpone some feature upgrades (like going from sylph arena 3.0 to 4.1)

Reseller has even more limited as it has content dictated by distributor together with pricing scheme. They are responsible for sales packaging and sales promos only. No matter if resell further through other companies.

So previously you told us, that auction house was dictate from Proficient city (or bad negotiation from your side), feature upgrades same (I know that different EU clone has other features, so not 7road, but Proficient City decided) and pricing scheme too.

I miss the answers to EU pricelist, especially Bulgaria and some candidate countries with EU-like VAT law (Albania, Serbia, Montenegro) as they are far from U.S. demographic. Is R2Games authorized (U.S. company reselling Proficient City EU subsidiary)? It has impact on Publishing and Consumer Law.

[MemoryLane]

I've already explained it several times. You're choosing to relabel it all, and add your own twists, and half of that is just not accurate.

What EU price list? If you're talking about VAT, the list is still sticky in the Official Announcements section of the forum.

[P-J-J]

I've already explained it several times. You're choosing to relabel it all, and add your own twists, and half of that is just not accurate.

What EU price list? If you're talking about VAT, the list is still sticky in the Official Announcements section of the forum.

Openly:
- Auction house is your decision or not - if not you are not publisher by law (you can still call yourself if it makes sense)
- Proficient City is distributor of English language version and has EU subsidiary, so its subsidiary should respect some more specifics than only the VAT
- R2Games has authorisation to resell Proficient City in EU with all the specifics? For example the 30 day support rules?

[MemoryLane]

Openly:
- Auction house is your decision or not - if not you are not publisher by law (you can still call yourself if it makes sense)
- Proficient City is distributor of English language version and has EU subsidiary, so its subsidiary should respect some more specifics than only the VAT
- R2Games has authorisation to resell Proficient City in EU with all the specifics? For example the 30 day support rules?

First point was answered already. Laws don't apply to the content. Contracts do.

R2 is not a distributor or a reseller, it is a publisher. Proficient City is a publisher of the english language version of Wartune, along with R2, as a partnership (as in, both companies own the same license to publish the game according to the terms of the contract). That is where the relationship ends. What ProC does, where they do it, and how they do it, doesn't matter to us. It's none of our business. If you're wanting to discuss ProC's business practices, you will need to go to their forum to do so.

Your last point, "R2Games has authorisation to resell Proficient City in EU with all the specifics?"... R2 isn't trying to sell ProC in the EU. I'm pretty sure that's not what you were going for with this one. I've never heard of a 30 day support rule.

[P-J-J]

You are constantly not answering the questions but changing the terminology. What are you hiding?

So if Proficient City is parallel to you in licence to publish, then Auction house is your decision. And you only agreed with partner reseller not to use it on market, but the decision is yours.
So either you are reseller of them and can refer to them as decision maker, or you respect their decision, but as your own decision and you blame us including the moderators.

30 days, please consult Consumer Law of EU countries which is bound to the VAT. You should be aware if you are selling to these countries per se.

This is my main issue with presentations your management made in past, as they do not respect the Consumer Law of the countries. We are maybe slow in innovations, but stronger in service. So what about presentation what should Chinese companies learn from US/EU in terms of customer service?

[MemoryLane]

I am trying to correct your terminology because different terms have different meanings. R2 is not reselling Wartune. Wartune is not for sale. You don't own anything here.

I'm not going to give you a different answer just because you phrased the question differently. Not many people, players or R2, have been here since the beginning. I'm not answering the question because I love to type, I'm answering because I was here for the discussion about the auction house and why we don't have it. I can't share the reason for why ProC doesn't want the auction house, but I was given permission a long time ago to say ProC is the reason why R2 doesn't have the auction house. You can ask that question with as many changes to the terminology as you wish, the answer just isn't going to change.

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't work for R2, so no, it's not my responsibility to be aware of anyone's laws. However, I read a summary on the directive on consumer rights for the EU, and it clearly mentions the laws apply to things you buy. In Wartune, you buy balens. That's where your rights are applied- to the balens. If you don't get your balens, or if your balens are defective, then you have rights that protect you, so that you either get your balens or you get your money back. What you do with those balens is up to you, but the laws don't extend to what you spend those balens on.

[P-J-J]

I am trying to correct your terminology because different terms have different meanings. R2 is not reselling Wartune. Wartune is not for sale. You don't own anything here.

I'm not going to give you a different answer just because you phrased the question differently. Not many people, players or R2, have been here since the beginning. I'm not answering the question because I love to type, I'm answering because I was here for the discussion about the auction house and why we don't have it. I can't share the reason for why ProC doesn't want the auction house, but I was given permission a long time ago to say ProC is the reason why R2 doesn't have the auction house. You can ask that question with as many changes to the terminology as you wish, the answer just isn't going to change.

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't work for R2, so no, it's not my responsibility to be aware of anyone's laws. However, I read a summary on the directive on consumer rights for the EU, and it clearly mentions the laws apply to things you buy. In Wartune, you buy balens. That's where your rights are applied- to the balens. If you don't get your balens, or if your balens are defective, then you have rights that protect you, so that you either get your balens or you get your money back. What you do with those balens is up to you, but the laws don't extend to what you spend those balens on.

Dear Memorylane,

it seems the whole issue with your answer is that you never consulted Law:

- Wartune is electronic online game, which belongs to online services, you are not internet shop for goods
- We buy virtual currency (balens) which amends the service, but mainly the normal and VIP service in the country where you pay VAT a/o sales tax, but you also need to accept country's consumer law, which is country protection for its people; most notably the selling allowance (for example if this game is classified as 15+, you cannot sell access to people under 15 years without fulfilling the regulatory obligation), warranty conditions and ability to return the product if does not fits to them, which for service means mostly refund.
- Some countries have different requirements if service is provided free of charge but any payment will change it to paid service (even if it means payment of 500 balens only).

You unfortunately do not understand difference between service and goods, you provide service (to play the game) not balens as goods. Balens are virtual currency limited to the online game, for upgrade of the service contents.

Now back to reseller/publisher/distributor:
- publisher has to fulfil Author law and is able to sell sublicenses to resellers/distributors
- distributor has to comply with Consumer law in the respective country, and has to have valid sublicense of the publisher, and has to fulfil the regulatory obligations imposed to online game/service by the respective country [for example kid's fighting issue]
- reseller needs to have valid sublicense (from publisher or from distributor), and has to fulfil the standard regulatory conditions of the market, but can refer to distributor in terms of service provided
[There are other categories in some countries, which distinguish value-added service providers, data placement, payment gateway restrictions, invoice numbering ...]

I found 7road.com as the only publisher of the Wartune, Proficient City is distributor as explicitly stated on their portal (and they decided not to distribute the auction house).

BTW, if you are paying VAT, in EU countries, you should have registered VAT unit there, Proficient City subsidiary we found, still searching for yours.

Auction House was for me only way how to reveal that you do not understand the regulatory obligations of the service, especially the support part. Which is both topic of this discussion and the main issue we have with R2.
And if R2Games has sublicence directly from 7road and not from Proficient City, then decision not to use Auction House (I understand why) is fully theirs (no matter if under agreement with Proficient City).

And this is funny as R2 is represented on forum by non-R2 person who should comply with U.S. online publishing law.