Short End of the Stick?

[Zorich]

Zorich you like to write wot and whine a bit too much about mage tbh. Will reply only about the passive part because i'm lazy.

I've barely been around... Hyperbole much?

Wrong, freya/frigga attack is MATK (snip)

Wrong when it comes to Mages. If you don't know why by now, I'm not educating you. There are a plethora of threads from months ago regarding how Loki / Odin determines whether it's Dual-Type attacks use PAtk / Dark or MAtk / Light. Go find one. The same applies to all merged pets.

True, archer always had higher damage (better for pve) but unless you copy/pasted wrong they don't get a defence bonus which kinda counter it (doesn't make it even but it's no more the +20% damage they have now).

No, they don't get a Defense Boost. They get the best passive of all. Tell me anyone here wouldn't take a 30% Critical Damage boost over a 30% MDef or 20% PDef? Come on now...

That bold part it's a rhetorical trick to make people think that passive is better than others. It's not. If a knight face another knight, they both have the same passive. If a knight face an archer, the archer has a damage boost while of 30% while knight have a def boost of 20%, overall archer win. If a knight face a mage, both don't care of the defence passive because it's of the other kind of damage. Basically what you said it's pointless. You're right tho that it's useless against merge sylph because freya/frigga use matk and the other 2 will also use matk against a knight.

It's not a trick. It's truth. Same Class v. Same Class is a wash on passives. Duh!
- Knight v. Archer (Archer Wins, but Knight still get +10% more HP and +20% PDef, so it's fairly decent balance).
- Mage v. Archer. (Archer Wins outright, +30% Damage vs. a 30% MDef that never applies to the Mage's enemy).
- Knight vs. Mage (Knight Wins outright because they get a +10% HP whereas the defensive bonuses are useless).

This is the easiest way to determine that Archer's passives are strongest, Knight's are strong as well, and the Mage just gets pooped on... AGAIN.

And Thank You! I bolded the end of your statement for emphasis. Merged Pets (all of them) use MAtk against Knights. They all use PAtk against Mages. It can go either way for Archers based on build.

The hp boost is nice and i agree. All that "br and sylph troop in cw enviroment" is something you did add that is, once again, useless. On cw knight face other knight so it doesn't even matter.

Agree - CW is class v. class, so it's a wash.

About BR, it's more about pride than anything else. Knight have easier life being top in rank and the only event where higher br is usefull is chaos war to be top 40 (tho i'm not sure that there's a server that can have the whole top 40 online on preliminar or finals) and a possible HOF event (which if it'll ever come again, i'll be a lot surprised). Also title for top 1/10 has become so old that you don't even see the difference if you lose them (i had the br rank bug and i saw that only because a guildie told me i wasn't where i should have been, lost 2 title and didn't even notice).

Actually, in something like TW, being Knight Heavy can make the difference in BR tiebreaker. BR doesn't matter a lot - but it does matter, which is why they really need to lessen the HP inflation on BR and put it back to a 5:1 HP:BR ratio on not only players, but Eudaemon as well.

My idea of passive is that overall it's even, mage get a good passive against frigga that it's the main sylph on every pvp event except class war maybe, archer get a good passive to deal more damage but lack of defence, knight get more hp which is good because increase the amount you can heal with rune/sunt. Won't talk about the skill untill i see every single skill and effect.

You're wrong that Frigga is only MAtk. Once you realize that, I think you'll realize that the MDef boost only serves the class in a Mage v Mage battle, and even then, only until awakening.

[Zorich]

I don't think its counted as 520%. Every source I see shows it working exactly like the regular multi-shot; cumulative damage of 260%.

Can anyone confirm?

Cumulative shot each doing 260% == 520%, FYI

[Alsatia01]

Cumulative shot each doing 260% == 520%, FYI

Yes..... cumulative damage of 260%.... as in... the two shots add up to 260%......

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, are you saying you confirmed it's 260% each? The plain language would indicate that the skill does 260%, not each hit.



This skill hits 5 times, and yet I'm pretty sure no one would argue that each hit does 405%.

[Zorich]

Won't talk about the skill untill i see every single skill and effect.

The value in () of f, n or s denote skill speeds of fast, normal and slow.

Mage Offensive Knighthood Skill Progression:
Default Skills (L5)
- (f) Thunder Gust 190% Damage, +10 Rage, 2s CD
- (n) Fiery Lotus 260% Damage (AoE), 10 Rage, 2s CD

"Arcane" Active Skills (L5)
- (f) Criminal Trial 530%, Single Target, 30s CD, 30 Rage, Single Target, Boosts Enemy Damage Received 30% (2 Turns)
- (n) Hell's Requiem 560%, Full AoE, 10s CD, 80 Rage, Boosts Enemy Damage Received 30% (2 Turns)
- (s) Lightbringer Recovers All Awakening Pts (Full Party), 30s CD, 100 Rage

"Restoration" Active Skills (L5)
- (f) Healing Hands 30% Max HP Healing, 30% Damage Reduction to Target (2 Turns), 30s CD, 30 Rage
- (n) Brightly Shining 18% Max HP Healing per turn for 3 Turns, 10s CD, 80 Rage
- (s) Paradise Carol 45% Max HP Healing, Removes 3 Neg buffs, 30s CD, 100 Rage

Criminal Trial is very nice. It can be repeat-used being it's only got a 30 Rage Requirement & 30s CD - kinda like Ice Bolt. Hell's Requiem is fairly specialized because of the 80 Rage cost and how slowly a Mage can get that back (4 Thunder Gusts compared to 2 Gash from a Knight). Lightbringer is awesome for Titan Wars. People w/ high-level clothes can lead with it - allowing everyone to awaken after the first skill. Hell, it's a pretty good potential strategy move to do be able to 1-move reawaken after the 1st awakening is over, so long as they've got 100 Rage ready.

The Restoration Skills are just awful. Healing Hands, the new Resto, will self-heal less than a non-crit resto today. And % Healing cannot Critical - so big heals are forever gone in Knighthood. And with the weak Default Skills, there's absolutely no reason to take this progression. It's utterly gimped. The only thing that makes it a little worthwhile is the uber-Sunto, but at 80 Rage, it can't be kept up and is vulnerable to being dispelled.

Knight Offensive Knighthood Skill Progression:
Default Skills (L5)
- (f) Gash 260% Damage, +30 Rage, 2s CD
- (n) Wrath Strike 380% Damage, 50% Chance of invoking 50% Damage Shield (2 turns), 10 Rage, 2s CD

"Fury" Active Skills (L5)
- (f) Subdue 100% Damage, Single Target, Decrease Enemy Awakening by 1100 Pts, 30s CD, 30 Rage
- (n) Spin Attack 280% Damage, Full AoE, 50% PATk Bleed (3 Turns), 10s CD, 80 Rage
- (s) Deicide 750% Damage, Single Target, Dispels a Single Buff from Enemy, 30s CD, 100 Rage.

"Defend" Active Skills (L1) * We don't know L5 Progression Yet, Speculation in ().
- (f) Fidelity Damage Shield Absorbs 15% (55% @L5?) Max HP, Full Party AoE, Lasts 2 Turns, 30s CD, 30 Rage
- (n) Blade Barrier Decreases Damage by 25% (65% @L5?), Full Party AoE, Lasts 2 Turns, 10s CD, 80 Rage
- (s) Tide Turner Increase HP & Max HP by 40% (80% @L5), Yourself, Lasts 2 Turns, Removes 1 Debuff, 30s CD, 100 Rage

Subdue is a nice "not so fast homey" awaken stopper that is a fast-attack. At 30s CD it can potentially be timed to repeatedly stop an awakening, or just be used to get someone out of awakening super-fast. The Knight's Spin Attack is actually a great AoE because of how quickly the Knight gets back rage. He can actually do it every 3rd action if he so desired (10s CD), and with that bleed (which ignores resistance, as all bleeds do), it's like getting a 500%+ AoE off every 3rd round - which a Mage can't match w/ Hell's Requiem because of the rage regen restrictions. Then you've got Deicide... I mean, come on! I don't think I've got to even get into how much damage that thing's going to do... Who the hell even needs to Sylph when it's 1v1 at that point?

The Defend Path could also be interesting in group play because of how strong the pair of base attacks are. It's going to have a better AoE Damage Shield than the Frigga. It's going to have an AoE Guardian Shield (that like the AoE Above, will be recastable every 3rd turn!). It's going to have a 2-Turn HP Doubler. That is if the speculation is correct.


Archer Offensive Knighthood Skill Progression:
Default Skills (L5)
- (f) Armed Shot 190% Damage, 50% Crit Rate Boost of 50%, +20 Rage, 2s CD
- (n) Multi Shot 260% Damage x2 (520%), 50% Crit Rate Boost of 50%, 10 Rage, 2s CD

"Marksman" Active Skills (L5)
- (f) Cluster Bomb 400% Damage, Full AoE, 30s CD, 30 Rage
- (n) Fatal Strike 500% Damage, Single Target, 10s CD, 80 Rage
- (s) Raid Shot 600% Damage, Single Target - Back Row, 30s CD, 100 Rage

"Survive" Active Skills (L1) * We don't know L5 Progression Yet, Speculation in ().
- (f) Red Barrage 180% (260% @L5?) Damage, 2-4 Targets, Target Damage Dealt Decreased by 30%, Lasts 2 Turns, 30s CD, 30 Rage
- (n) Sonic Blast 150% (210% @L5?) Damage, Full AoE, Dispells 3 Buffs from Enemies, 10s CD, 80 Rage.
- (s) Vital Move 250% (400% @L5?) Damage, Single Target, Decrease Awakening Pts by 1200, 30s CD, 100 Rage.

Honestly, the more I look at this, the two things that make this build are the +30% Critical Damage Passive combined with a Jacked-Up Multi Shot that allows the Archer to fire off 500%+ Damage every other turn at no rage deficit.

Looking at Marksman... Cluster Bomb, a 30s CD 400% Full AoE is (surprise) the fastest AoE in any class damage spec. It's a Eudaemon & Troop Clearer when combined with the Critical Damage Booster, allowing the Multi Shot to have only a Player Target(s) when used. Fatal Strike is Delphic Sniper getting a buff, but I don't ever see it being used. Why drain 80 Rage for a 500% Attack when Multi-Shot drains 0 Rage for a 260% Dual Attack. Raid Shot is the 2nd best single-target damage in the game, but still, for 100 Rage, only doing 80% more skill % damage than Multi Shot.

Survive though I think is the way to go. Trade some unneeded big damage hits for crowd control. And why? Because you've got Multi-Shot . The combo of Lunatic and Scatter into Sonic Blast is awesome. Full AoE 210% Damage w/ a Triple Dispel. Score. And the Archer can get it back in 3 Armed Shots. Not quite as fast as the Knight gets back his AoE, but still better than the Mage. Vital Move is like the Knight's Subdue, but slower and does 4x the damage. Red Barrage is the new Incendiary for only 30 Rage and is really fast.

Once I know more about the end-game skill values for the active skills, I'll update this.

[Zorich]

Yes..... cumulative damage of 260%.... as in... the two shots add up to 260%......

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, are you saying you confirmed it's 260% each? The plain language would indicate that the skill does 260%, not each hit.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]158116[/ATTACH]

This skill hits 5 times, and yet I'm pretty sure no one would argue that each hit does 405%.

The skill, just like the Archer's Multi Shot now, or the Sanctuary Hunter's, lands twice. I'm not an active archer anymore (stopped playing my alts and actually gave the archer away) so don't have the pop-up text for it, but as to the Sanctuary Hunter's L5 Multi-Shot:


Notice it says "Deals 150% +300 PATK randomly twice" in the description? That's two 150% Shot that, if there is only one target (like the boss in Bounties) does 150% TWO times for a total of 300% Damage.

The Archer regular Multi-Shot does the same thing, but it's capped at 55% +150 PATK for each attack, for an effective total of 110% if there's only 1 target left to hit, plus the +25% QTE.

That's why seeing the Knighthood Multi-Shot go up from a 55% Base in the regular Archer to a 260% Base in the Knighthood Archer is rather shocking. That single basic attack, paired with the crit damage booster, is going to do more damage for no cost and 2s CD than the Mage's best Single Target skill in their Arcane (Offensive) Skills which has a 30s CD and costs 30 Rage.

[Alsatia01]

The skill, just like the Archer's Multi Shot now, or the Sanctuary Hunter's, lands twice. I'm not an active archer anymore (stopped playing my alts and actually gave the archer away) so don't have the pop-up text for it, but as to the Sanctuary Hunter's L5 Multi-Shot:

Notice it says "Deals 150% +300 PATK randomly twice" in the description? That's two 150% Shot that, if there is only one target (like the boss in Bounties) does 150% TWO times for a total of 300% Damage.

The Archer regular Multi-Shot does the same thing, but it's capped at 55% +150 PATK for each attack, for an effective total of 110% if there's only 1 target left to hit, plus the +25% QTE.

That's why seeing the Knighthood Multi-Shot go up from a 55% Base in the regular Archer to a 260% Base in the Knighthood Archer is rather shocking. That single basic attack, paired with the crit damage booster, is going to do more damage for no cost and 2s CD than the Mage's best Single Target skill in their Arcane (Offensive) Skills which has a 30s CD and costs 30 Rage.

I get what you're saying, but that doesn't seem right...



The damage on the skills are otherwise identical, and would make sense from a design standard. You can also visually tell by comparing the damage of an archer/knight of similar br/stats in pve events such as spire; the two (added) hits from multi-shot seem to be roughly the same as a single ultimate slasher. Of course archer still has the major advantage by being able to use the skills much faster, but it makes more sense than archers literally being able to do twice the damage on that skill.

Am I missing something, or is multi-shot really that OP? It seemed pretty standard before.

P.S. - Then again.... even if it is 260% and not 520%.... going from 110% to 260% is still one hell of a jump....

P.S.S. - My knight has a level 3 ult slasher not lvl 5, so I used my own skill for the picture - I think it's the same at level 5.

[Zorich]

I get what you're saying, but that doesn't seem right...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]158120[/ATTACH]

The damage on the skills are otherwise identical, and would make sense from a design standard. You can also visually tell by comparing the damage of an archer/knight of similar br/stats in pve events such as spire; the two (added) hits from multi-shot seem to be roughly the same as a single ultimate slasher. Of course archer still has the major advantage by being able to use the skills much faster, but it makes more sense than archers literally being able to do twice the damage on that skill.

Am I missing something, or is multi-shot really that OP? It seemed pretty standard before.

P.S. - Then again.... even if it is 260% and not 520%.... going from 110% to 260% is still one hell of a jump....

That's the thing, in the skill description, the regular Archer's Multi-Shot is only a 55% Skill and it's comparable, as you said, to a 150% Ultimate Slasher. It's because it's dealing that 55% twice vs. a single target. The new Knighthood Archer's Multi Shot does the same thing, but that 55% goes to 260%. It IS that OP from what I've been told.

I had a hard time wrapping my head around that as well when I first read it, but I've been assured that it's actually doing it.

[AdaJames]

It is very simple. Take a look at your stats. Go on.

Which is the highest stat you have, other than hp?

Your Pdef, Mdef or Atk (M or P, whichever is higher) stat?

So, 30% to Atk gives a bigger bonus or 20% to a single Def stat?

Does 30% to a Atk stat increases and 20% to Def the gap between the Atk stat and the Def stat, which is the definition of the damage dealt?

In other words, they are giving 30% to an ALREADY LARGER STAT to a toon that SPECIALISES in ATK, vs 20% to a smaller stat. And some of you think that is fair.

*slow claps*

[Alsatia01]

That's the thing, in the skill description, the regular Archer's Multi-Shot is only a 55% Skill and it's comparable, as you said, to a 150% Ultimate Slasher. It's because it's dealing that 55% twice vs. a single target. The new Knighthood Archer's Multi Shot does the same thing, but that 55% goes to 260%. It IS that OP from what I've been told.

I had a hard time wrapping my head around that as well when I first read it, but I've been assured that it's actually doing it.

I think Multi-Shot is the only skill that really describes what the damage is for a single hit. All the others just say the skill percentage and you're just left to your own devices to figure out how much each hit really does. Either way.... OP as hell lol

P.S. - Do you have the knighthood skills/passives for knights? They the only class I can't seem to get my hands on.

[Alsatia01]

It is very simple. Take a look at your stats. Go on.

Which is the highest stat you have, other than hp?

Your Pdef, Mdef or Atk (M or P, whichever is higher) stat?

So, 30% to Atk gives a bigger bonus or 20% to a single Def stat?

Does 30% to a Atk stat increases and 20% to Def the gap between the Atk stat and the Def stat, which is the definition of the damage dealt?

In other words, they are giving 30% to an ALREADY LARGER STAT to a toon that SPECIALISES in ATK, vs 20% to a smaller stat. And some of you think that is fair.

*slow claps*

What are you talking about? The passives? All classes have a 20% bonus to patk/matk - Archers have a 30% critical damage increase; that is not the same as a 30% increase in patk, or in damage.

It's still not 'fair', and definitely helps a lot more if the passive sticks around for slyph damage; it's unfair... but not that unfair.

[AdaJames]

Archers crit 90% of the time. It is +30% damage, more or less.

[TheTesterS]

It is very clear to everyone that class advance skills and now 2nd class advancement skills Mages got the worst skills. Now the old set of skills will be removed giving way crappier skill than the other 2 classes(note: heal and damage skills has been split which was before the part where mages could match up on other class). As more than half of players are mages, please give consideration to improve the knighthood skills of mages.

[AdaJames]

Or just don't do the Knighthood thing. Not that most people would be able to any time soon anyway. I am giving it at least 2 years before it becomes a factor on my toon.

[princestewii]

Or just don't do the Knighthood thing. Not that most people would be able to any time soon anyway. I am giving it at least 2 years before it becomes a factor on my toon.

They are saying its unfair because mages are going to lose their dominance in pvp. sigh

[AdaJames]

Dominance? In PvP? Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha*gasp*hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!