STOP before you make another life changing UPDATE,READ THIS!

[AdaJames]

Don't need it. Some of the busybody fools in our society would get outraged on their behalf and sue you instead.

[Meikura001]

Yep, true that.

[R27377783]

Slave or Merc Spirits

"sell" Eudaemons. It reminds me of slavery. I don't know if these ar supposed to be demons or whatever but it sends a bad message anyway, especially since people tend to refer to them as "Kids" the result is people are encouraged to "sell" their "kids". All you had to do was turn the word into "dismiss

In a virtual game in a virtual world such as WT is...a eudi is an inanimate object. Call it a "kid" or a "eudi" it is virtual. You refer to it as a "kid" and as a rl "kid" who is being sold...and should be dismissed instead. My question is...why are you dismissing the "kid" from your family? Dismiss means to allow them to leave the table or some thing. But this is not rl it is a virtual world where selling is preferred. You are given 1 free but then have to do things to "earn" another one. In rl you dont "earn" kids. You create them between a man and woman. Just words for thought.

Happens all the time especially when they turn 18yrs old and is still probably more humane than enslaving them.
I'll admit though that this is almost coherent argument but if I read you correctly your basically saying: because its just virtual entertainment it doesn't matter if the depiction is is morally objectionable. An argument thats easy to get away with with something as innocuous as a button with a common word(despite its ambiguous context) but if we expand the concept to say: gratuitous depictions of gore or porn in the medium (FOR EXAMPLES) your argument begins to look more and more like the ****** argument it actually is.

Anyway I'm not blaming the devs for coming up with the nickname IDK(or care) who did (someone said it was players in the Chinese version of the game) but devs have also clearly adopted it in any case, and even if they hadn't its popular use is worth pointing out as an incidental reason to tone down the slave sale of these "virtual" creatures.

I just called them "sidekicks" and treat them just as badly, LOL. Now I am waiting for the sidekick union to come at me with a few torches and pitchforks.

Don't need it. Some of the busybody fools in our society would get outraged on their behalf and sue you instead.

Hold all the presses, developers. Someone's going all politically correct in this thread when it comes to "enslaving" and "selling" in the same sense. I wonder how many games out there are going to be affected by such now.

okay so I can dismiss all your objections to my OP as actually objections to some trend you feel threatened by thats happening in modern society toward eradicating antisocial concepts and injustices. Okay well pardon me for I guess attempting to bring some of that kind of accountability into what you must perceive to be your last little bastion of blissful ignorance but as a consolation I'm not attempting to change how YOU would rather regard the game creatures. you can abuse them however you like give them the crappiest names and weakest resistance builds if you like, go to town.

I'm addressing what I believe to be a morally/socially objectionable oversight of the devs, not the players. IF this is your attempt to convince me or maybe just the rest of our fellow WT players that its somehow wrong to call out game devs on any depictions I or we might consider gratuitous or otherwise morally or socially questionable BEFORE the press/factions get wind of it, well good luck with that, may the biggest arsehole win that contest, but your not going to convince ME that your brand of ignorance is somehow unassailable, I promise you that.

okay so I can hardly believe this is necessary but lets figure this thing out.

Someone before suggested to me that these are supposed to be "guardian spirits" if thats the case then it makes even less sense that anyone could ever assign them to another person or purpose, let alone "sell" them off(to whom anyway. We don't buy them with any kind of currency so why to get rid of them we have to sell them for stuff that is also not currency or was never involved in their original acquisition? )...but moreover, What kind of "guardian spirit" can be bought and sold?!

Whatever is the case, I don't know what Eudaemons are supposed to represent(to me the name suggests demons/"daemons") or how they came into being in relation to the game players armies and in terms of a story so I'll go mainly by how they behave and what is used to acquire them. It'd be nice if someone who actually knows about these creatures relationship to the game story and is not just replying to be a socio-political hooligan, could join the discussion and try to clear it up.

I'll say ahead of time that I've come to conclude that maybe these beings are meant to be considered as slaves or in some form of mercenary contract to the players..in the former case perhaps being able to "sell" them off is then at least not inconsistent with the game's theme nor just an unnecessary random morally questionable oversight. In that case I would still suggest either flesh out the slavery aspect and make it more obvious so players can decide for themselves what and how they are participating with the game (eg I thought I was acquiring a daemonic military ally by constructing some talisman to summon them) or else compromise to change the buttons word to "release" if "dismiss" is so appalling as an alternative or impossible to render. I'd like to point out here that changing the text on the button shouldn't in any way effect the gameplay involved directly.

It doesn't seem so unlikely that releasing or dismissing them might inspire them to return some of the crystals I've bestowed on them while they were in service to me, but for whatever reasons keep the rest. especially if they were always willing helpers, not slaves held in bondage.

Below is partly the reason why I'm thinking devs maybe intended for these creatures to be regarded as slaves to the players..okay,again, then the proper thing to do is change the button to say "release".

Initially, and actually ever after, players must communicate with an npc and turn in 5 Eudaemon Mark Shards to summon one of them. These Mark Shards don't seem to have an in-game monetary value and there is no mention of "purchasing" or even trading a Eudaemon anywhere. SO to best interpret this I looked at the most comprehensive list of definitions for the term "mark" I found in the time I spent looking and picked the most applicable:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/mark
The word history section sums up pretty well the most promising definitions of the word, and I'll highlight the portions that best fit my impressions of whats going on in this game.
{ Word Origin and History for mark
n.

"trace, impression," Old English mearc (West Saxon), merc (Mercian) "boundary, sign, limit, mark," from Proto-Germanic *marko (cf. Old Norse merki "boundary, sign," mörk "forest," which often marked a frontier; Old Frisian merke, Gothic marka "boundary, frontier," Dutch merk "mark, brand," German Mark "boundary, boundary land"), from PIE *merg- "edge, boundary, border" (cf. Latin margo "margin;" Avestan mareza- "border," Old Irish mruig, Irish bruig "borderland," Welsh bro "district").

The primary sense is probably "boundary," which had evolved by Old English through "sign of a boundary," through "sign in general," then to "impression or trace forming a sign." Meaning "any visible trace or impression" first recorded c.1200. Sense of "line drawn to indicate starting point of a race" (e.g. on your marks ...) first attested 1887. The Middle English sense of "target" (c.1200) is the notion in marksman and slang sense "victim of a swindle" (1883). The notion of "sign, token" is behind the meaning "numerical award given by a teacher" (1829). Influenced by Scandinavian cognates.

"unit of money or weight," late Old English marc, a unit of weight (chiefly for gold or silver) equal to about eight ounces, probably from Old Norse mörk "unit of weight," cognate with German Mark, probably ultimately a derivative of mark (n.1), perhaps in sense of "imprinted weight or coin." Used from 18c. in reference to various continental coinages, especially. the silver coin of Germany first issued 1875.**

okay so to me these definitions does not outright refute the strongest likelihood that the means of acquiring Eudaemons is meant to represent an invocation or ritual/incantation the common use of sigils/signs in magical practices,clear use of the term "summon" and their obvious supernatural demeanor really seems obvious that whatever bondage is occurring is spiritual/mystical in nature on at least some level..but..the use of "mark" shards to do it stills leaves it open that there is at least an ostensible possibility that some kind of monetary offering is involved.

Now without the "sell" button this could be explained as a ghost mercenary theme. eg these are the souls or energy bodies of ancient mercenaries who lived in a time when the "Eudaemon Mark Shard" was the kind of currency that bought their loyalty. So to summon such a spirit from that age one must acquire the relic coin of the past as an offering and they would serve until "dismissed" or "released" defeatable but ultimately indestructible, like the sylphs. With the sell button though its more suggestive that there is some kind of unexplained slavery/trafficking operation occurring that reduces their value to a random amount of crystals. The player/slave master doesn't even get to choose the highest bidder or best deal for their training efforts.
Idk. I wonder what other more rational players than Ada and Mei think? Which seems like the more likely scenario based on the behaviors of the game?

-Ancient mercenary guardian spirits bribed with an obsolete kind of coin that when dismissed keep the coin and return some of the crystals they were entrusted with
...OR ...
-somehow, WILLING warrior slaves sold in an unprofitable shadow market that yet can be trusted enough to follow the player well within back stabbing range.

I don't know about the rest of the forum population but I like the former better..its much more exalting of my ever so helpful Eudaemons and explains why they didn't turn on me even during those times they wound up being more powerful than my toon.

Guardian,Slave,Merc, or other..."dismissing" or "releasing" them when they are no longer needed is still a more appropriate term that explains what seems to happen when I click that button, and for me its also a much more socially acceptable term I'd rather see being used.

[MrFancyPants]

2 months and you're coming back to this now? I guess it's worth responding to some of this novella you've written.

okay so I can dismiss all your objections to my OP as actually objections to some trend you feel threatened by thats happening in modern society toward eradicating antisocial concepts and injustices.

No, they just think you're being ridiculous. As do I. Mockery may not be nice, but it's not exactly a social injustice.

Someone before suggested to me that these are supposed to be "guardian spirits" if thats the case then it makes even less sense that anyone could ever assign them to another person or purpose, let alone "sell" them off(to whom anyway. We don't buy them with any kind of currency so why to get rid of them we have to sell them for stuff that is also not currency or was never involved in their original acquisition? )...but moreover, What kind of "guardian spirit" can be bought and sold?!

Whatever is the case, I don't know what Eudaemons are supposed to represent(to me the name suggests demons/"daemons") or how they came into being in relation to the game players armies and in terms of a story so I'll go mainly by how they behave and what is used to acquire them. It'd be nice if someone who actually knows about these creatures relationship to the game story and is not just replying to be a socio-political hooligan, could join the discussion and try to clear it up.

They're called "eudaemons" which in myth were known as guardian spirits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaemon_(mythology)) - Google isn't that hard to use.
As to how you could transfer them, that's not exactly relevant, since this is a game with invented mechanics. Maybe they're tied to a mystical mark we construct from the shards. That's probably more thought into it than the game designers gave it.

Also, note the glowing eyes on all the human-shaped ones. That is not a common feature among actual children. Or any age human.


And if you're so worked up over the eudaemons, why aren't you bothered by the fact that we can sacrifice sylphs? Or feed them to each other? That seems so much worse than selling.

[AdaJames]

Note that the diamonds are listed in the blacksmith under the Guard tab.

Also, it is social injustice because you did not agree with him. Typical post-modern mutilation of the English language.

[darkwolf3307]

R27377783

I stared to read the point you were making, but when i started to scroll down to read more then went W T F ?!? I'm not reading that I'm sorry. I understand you spend some time making that and trying to get others to see your point of view, but please understand its just a game. I think your time is wasted on something thats so petty as what players call their eudaemons when there are other games like GTA that lets you not only .... but also run her over and get your money back.

But to humor you instead of "selling" the kid/eudamon think the best name for the button would be "send to college". Then you can make believe your "kids" went off to school and start their own life. For .... and giggles R2 can send you pictures of your kids and their new family for Christmas.

[Meikura001]

But to humor you instead of "selling" the kid/eudamon think the best name for the button would be "send to college". Then you can make believe your "kids" went off to school and start their own life. For .... and giggles R2 can send you pictures of your kids and their new family for Christmas.

That line had won best of the internet. Cheers.

[TolapPumj]

Happens all the time especially when they turn 18yrs old and is still probably more words... words... words...

I don't post much in the forums, but when I do, I prefer to make sense. Stop being a troll, my friend.

[AdaJames]

Oh, and can that idiot R-whatever-783 guy please stop sending me invites to an "online psychic reading and cleansing"? I have never fallen for those kind of Nigerian Internet scams and don't intend to start now.

[R27377783]

Also, it is social injustice because you did not agree with him. Typical post-modern mutilation of the English language.

Are you even reading these posts or just skimming and looking for key words to argue against? I didn't call any social injustice based on whether or not anybody disagrees with me. Everything about what I've ever written to you should have told you I don't give **** about your opinion of me or my idea beyond attempting to set your facts straight. If you read my replies/posts, your being grossly immature here. I feel like I've stumbled into a teen forum, and maybe I have, so be it. Maybe the length of my replies is effecting your ability to read and retain the knowledge of what is being written. Your also unable to stay on topic of any given thread that I've posted/replied in, thats how I know your goals is just to argue against me did (I offend one of your bedmates somewhere back then?) not what I'm posting about..I don't know what you like about me but I'm sorry the feeling is not mutual.. I used the term social injustice generally here to highlight the fact that they are comparing my complaint against the word "Sell" to get rid of unwanted Eudaemons, with some popular movements of activists or something. Basically(since I see you need that) I'm noting they are saying they have something against the concept of pointing out social responsibility or seeking "political correctness" particularly in games. I'm trying to warn them that if their goal is to shame me with their childish mockery for giving a **** about social responsibility and conscientiousness in THIS game, I'm assuring them and anyone else who thinks thats possible that its a lost cause for at least as long as I am playing it, and maybe a little bit beyond that time depending on how much of an issue I think it is. I also acknowledged that perhaps their tactics is meant moreso to manipulate other forum readers not to take things like this seriously. Why they feel its important for noone to give **** about the devs social accountability I can only speculate, but I accept that goal as likelihood imo it seems to be working on the few gullible repliers the topic is getting, but w/e. I'm not tired of it yet so we'll keep it going. My words were "may the biggest arsehole win" in that case. Comparison/caricature and mockery isn't an argument. Thus my conclusion. They don't really care about the button at all, they are threatened and/or offended by the idea that someone else cares, to me THAT is a mark of "insanity", but I've been around for a few years so I guess maybe my perspective is a little different than these punk kids. To clarify If I mentioned social justice in this thread probably about 2 months ago I guess it would have been referring to promoting the CONCEPT of trafficking in sentient beings as imo it correlates to human trafficking and also I've observed no context for it in the game, its literally just a button that could say anything else and perform the same function and not at all effect the story or gameplay. The context of slavery comes from my own perspective on the idea of selling a human-like being, so I guess no one else so fars sees that but I rather tend to think it has more to do with none else thinking its a bad deal. but it is, it really is, or is human trafficking again okay now as long as its a game? how about eating human babies in comic books? Well if the "babies" are called something jazzy and they happen to be green then they are clearly not human..so I guess that'll be okay too "cause its comic books"[insert trailer park drawl] anyone here with kids enjoy letting them check out the hentai? "yup! its fun to watchem get traumatized!" I could care less if you or any others disagrees with my correlation. I might become a bit more combative though when that disagreement is combined with immature mockery that doesn't even correspond to whats being written. If you read the posts I quoted and read mine you'll see that they are not objecting to my post at all. They are objecting to the idea that ANYONE would dare complain about ANYTHING being socially irresponsible..particularly in games. Neither of the comments I qouted above actually addressed the merits(or lack thereof) of my complaint about the use of the term "sell" other than the same old tired "its just a game". Lots of revile about my pointing out the use of the word "kid" though..Even..though..there's.. NO dispute that it IS the term being used as a nickname for these virtual beings, nor am I the one who coined the term, so..can't blame me for that either. They don't look like kids don't act like kids but its okay to make that utterly random correlation but not okay to make other correlations such as from "selling" them to slavery(the only kind of status I know of irl besides war-bride marriage where it has ever been socially acceptable to "sell" humans or maybe I can say human-like beings since lots of time those sold were also marketed as not quite full on human irl.) but somehow the correlation is unreasonable..okay well w/e I guess we'll wind up recycling that humanitarian disaster/lesson again..probably pretty soon at the rate people are disappearing these days. Well devs I'm sure you can see these forums! in-game SELLING of PEOPLE, as long as their eyes glow, is okay now..Why not go ahead and fire up that "Merchants of Slavery" sim app thats been in tied up in the publishing department, the time is ripe! Okay now am I being sarcastic too? I guess its just so infectious! And succint! You ******* forum twerps.

[AdaJames]

That is not what your pathetic PM to me said. You said that it is vitally important to you that people agree with you, and therefore offered me an online psychic reading and cleansing, presumably so that I would then start agreeing with you.

Seriously, kid, take your Scientology **** elsewhere. I am not interested.

And no, I didn't read anything past the first 2 sentences. I believe the correct Internet vernacular is "tl;dr"...

[R27377783]

2 months and you're coming back to this now?

yup I'll probably keep coming back to it as I feel like it because this single button is total **.

No, they just think you're being ridiculous. As do I. Mockery may not be nice, but it's not exactly a social injustice.

okay mrfancypants thank you. Well it likely goes without saying that I think THEY and YOU are being ridiculous to blow this off. I'd maybe have expected something more along the lines of pointing out how its consistent with something in the game that players should have to sell them to get rid of them but that hasn't happened yet. I'm getting arguments that seem more like: "Well, it didn't occur to me first, so noone else should be offended by it." My my, what a great conversation where having eh? Maybe someday I'll be beside myself with shiftlessness enough to reply to one of their posts about something I really don't even care about myself and comment with no more input than to say "I think your being ridiculous. Throw in a little mockery and futile shaming attempts for crowd pleasing effect and maybe the score will be even..but I think if that happens I'll probably be direct and just out and say it: Your post is droll,I disagree that it matters or will improve the game in any way if they change it, and..Me ,Myself, and I, think its rather crazy that you care so much about social issues as they might relate to content in a fantasy game. Thats where I'm at..since I'm sure you must have asked my personal opinion somewhere along the way..."

They're called "eudaemons" which in myth were known as guardian spirits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaemon_(mythology)) - Google isn't that hard to use.

yeh I didn't know about google..but also I thought they were totally made up...this information changes...WHAT?..regarding the argument behind the post? btw I think you'll appreciate the fact that I still haven't looked it up or clicked your link..because like really arrogantly confident that being able to sell them off is not gonna be part of the lore. maybe you can use your google powers to qoute somewhere where it says that.

As to how you could transfer them, that's not exactly relevant, since this is a game with invented mechanics.

okay but the font on the button that says "sell' is not part of the mechanics of what happens when yyou click it and theres no associated content with the sale of the "kids"

That's probably more thought into it than the game designers gave it.

Absolutely, agreed. I on the other hand had enough time on MY hands to give it some thought, and here we are. In this forum though I'm finding that,based on some of the responses I've had to deal with so far, THINKING is not popular move around these parts. Best to let the publishers and dev do all the thinking seems be the general idea. Then crack some jokes.

Also, note the glowing eyes on all the human-shaped ones. That is not a common feature among actual children. Or any age human.

yup your a visionary how could I miss that. I wonder why theres no **** button though? I mean there eyes are glowing, bro.

And if you're so worked up over the eudaemons, why aren't you bothered by the fact that we can sacrifice sylphs? Or feed them to each other? That seems so much worse than selling.

It kinda bothered me at first for a second but I already got over that..but this is too much now..besides slavery is worse than death imo. Eating is natural. Theres probably a whole sylph ecosystem on the atoll when humans aren't around messing up the environment there.

[R27377783]

That is not what your pathetic PM to me said. You said that it is vitally important to you that people agree with you, and therefore offered me an online psychic reading and cleansing, presumably so that I would then start agreeing with you.

Seriously, kid, take your Scientology **** elsewhere. I am not interested.

And no, I didn't read anything past the first 2 sentences. I believe the correct Internet vernacular is "tl;dr"...

omg thats what your on about? How could I know that you were violating the forum rule about posting people pms in the forum sheesh my bad geez can we have one argument at a time please?! seriously though that pm was meant for someone else I am actually sorry I sent that to you.

[R27377783]

R27377783
I think your time is wasted on something thats so petty as what players call their eudaemons when there are other games like GTA that lets you not only .... but also run her over and get your money back.

GTA is marketed as a **** game abot the ♥♥♥♥ aspects of reality from the moment you insert the disk you know your about to try and outdo yourself in how to be an *******. there no ambiguity. IF WT was marketed as a slave trading game and the content reflected such I wouldn't have even blinked about selling the kids. but then I probably wouldn't play it either I literally have no interest in being a fantasy slave merchant or owner. Not even in Star Wars games. I had no choice at the time though...she wasn't doing anything different for me than she had already been doing before I got there.

[Alsatia01]

IF WT was marketed as a slave trading game and the content reflected such I wouldn't have even blinked about selling the kids. but then I probably wouldn't play it either I literally have no interest in being a fantasy slave merchant or owner.

Please demonstrate how having a virtual eudaemon that follows you around, is equivalent to owning slaves. Better yet, demonstrate how any of these 'issues' have any demonstrable harm.

P.S. - Thanks ML for deleting my post again.