STOP before you make another life changing UPDATE,READ THIS!

[Alsatia01]

Your posts would probably be taken more seriously if you wrote them correctly/differently. I cannot stress this enough, I do not mean it as an insult, but you write like a middle schooler. I tried to come up with a less... demeaning characterization, but I couldn't find a subtle way to say it. To be much more specific - you write a lot, but there's very little substance in most of the posts you do. If you could make your posts a lot more concise and clear, they probably wouldn't be so ill-received.

For example, your OP, I'll rewrite it for you, just so you can get an example of where I'm coming from. ( And presumably, everyone else who thinks TLDR when they see your posts. )

The last few updates have been the epitome of taking "two steps forward and two steps back."
This last time the step forward was making a way to deal with unwanted Eudaemons.
The two steps back were: devolving the player farmsteads into a non-instance
Making Cloud City into a huge scene that takes along time to traverse and removes some of the convenient NPCs.

I'm pretty unhappy with the direction the developers have been taking the game, along several different aspects of the game.

I also even have issues with how the Eudaemon "Selling" system was deployed, I'll start with that: I think its unethical for there to be a button to "sell" Eudaemons. It reminds me of slavery. I don't know if these ar supposed to be demons or whatever but it sends a bad message anyway, especially since people tend to refer to them as "Kids" the result is people are encouraged to "sell" their "kids". All you had to do was turn the word into "dismiss" and I wouldn't even have thought about it.

You should change the 'sell' button to 'dismiss', or to something that doesn't walk the ethical line of selling another person.

That said, I also am one of those who would have preferred if there would have been the option to merge two Eudaemons of the same class to get a single Eudaemon that has learned to be a better version and dismissing the other. I've come up with a better alternative option than both and that would have been if we had a good reason to KEEP some of those extra Eudaemons. The reason I came up with that would make this game awhole lot more interesting is if we could deploy them into squads with our reserve troops, and let them grind and fight for the players. Let them live up to their name as "guards". This need only be available in 4-6 places. Wilds,Farmstead/Player city(should go back to being "instances",3 + house in fact:Countryside, Farmstead with the hamlet and house,Castle/Wall Siege) Dimension war and Sylph atoll. This should be so that there is a real pvp war aspect to this game. There is a very specific way that should be implemented so I'm willing to spend the rest of this post describing it.

It would be nice to have some additional customization's/events/uses or merge-abilities for eudaemon.

Troops,Squads and deployment-
Firstly the goal is not to make the game unbearable on players who aren't interested in a wargaming aspect. I notice that this game has been built to appeal to gamers of many different genre interests, that shouldn't change. But for those that DO want to have warfare, the Eudaemon squads are deployable with troops in certain instances. They can only operate in the instance they are deployed at until they are, eliminated,recalled or their deployment expires. They do not go through portals,enter cities or attack players unless the player is an "invader" such as in pvp city plunder/siege,dimension war or "Realm War" an event idea I will discuss in a different forum but its a faction/kingdom vs kingdom style weekly war event.

I have an idea for an event that could be really fun, but I'm going to save that for a later post/thread.

That means players can attack them and the squads can attack monsters and other Kid squads, but not player characters*(they can harass though, see "Troops" section below) in Sylph Atolls,Wilds,or any other permanent common instances devs feel they could be deployed. I don't expect to see them in Battlegrounds, Amethyst mines,Guild Wars,SP Dungeons or MP dungeons..(remember low impact on other players not interested in wargaming.) But they can grind for players in Wilds and Atolls attacking npcs,sylphs,unoccupied goldmines and guard dimension corridors, and Farmstead/city siege instances that should be generated when a city is founded/moved and can be entered by the player to rearrange their defenses.(Yes put an end to the one hit plunders..well sort've those should become available for a week AFTER a siege has been successful and as a result of fighting in Guild Wars.)The squads are deployed as a squad in the instance wherever the player is standing that is their spawn point once the player has assigned the Eudaemons ot a mission. Before they are deployed all the decisions of how they will behave are done in whatever control panel or screen is used to assign them to troops. You give the Kid Squads the desired formation and check off their "orders" before deployment. The formations are: 2-4 Eudaemons no troops,1 Eudaemon troops in front,1 Eudaemon troops in back. The squad will appear on the screen based on what kid or troop is in front or leader position of 4 kid squads. Again they will not cross through portals or go into another instance once deployed unless recalled to the player and the player goes there themselves and then redeploys them. The troops they use remain counted as reserves so players will not be able to recruit more troops than their normal max by putting some in squads. This means players will still want to keep only the best Eudaemons,maybe some as decoys and dismiss/merge the rest.

I'm writing all of this to make the post longer. Even though I already said I would save this information for another thread.

Troops
The troops strengths in this game need to be redistributed. So that every troop is fairly equal based on their levels. A level 70 lancer should be on par with a lvl 70 Demonic Knight as far as base stats. The only differences should be how they compliment the unit that leads them, and how the player has developed their troops specialties. This point allows players to feel unique and get into their characters more instead of having to use the same troops and tactics as everybody else using the same class of hero.
-"Pot Shots" This is an extra field distance attack each class of troops gets to harass other units they encounter before actually engaging in direct combat. These attacks will be activated/countered automatically by ai sometimes, or by players using a push button feat when a unit in range is selected and ready to perform them. devs try not to get too carried away with these (again,LOW impact changes). These attacks steal % of hp,magic and rage and can stun poison units for any battle they fight soon afterward, to soften targets for fights and set up field gauntlets/strategies,like tanks in GB, but these % reductions should not be able to actually eliminate a unit completely.

Melee troops (Lancers,Paladins,Templars,Taurens,etc)-Encirclement.I imagined the push button feat to be a circle of duplicates appears around the target, if the target picks the correct unit they have blocked the encirclement and might stun the attacker.

Mounted/Flying troops-(Knights,Demonic Knights,Gryphon?) I see this as obviously the attacker charges a target stunning it. The attacker must choose a direction that determines where the squad is facing and how far away they land after the charge. This is good for facing multiple squads, and every successful charge allows them to keep charging other unit faster. The counter is if they are able to use a QTE or something to dodge the charge, and flank the mounties dealing severe penalties and stuns to the attackers, and breaking their charging momentum.

Ranged troops (Hunter,Eye of Yaros,Umbral Hunters, anything with a bow,or dart) longest physical ranged attack, can shoot at any targets within visual range unless obstructed, deal hp loss, can cause stuns in next battle. No way to avoid the shots, but other ranged units can automatically counterattack if they win a QTE/feat match, other targets can use "take cover" reaction feat/qte to end the sniper's attack but they are "pinned down" from moving across the field for a few moments (until the special attack ends.) As one can see the best way to deal with ranged troops is to get a unit close enough to engage them because a few of them can slow a large umber of troops from moving and living long. Magical units and Mounted units with their ability to chain together charge attacks and therefore move across a battlefield quickly are clearly the best option to go after them. While answering with your own archery units are a good way to counter them long enough for other units to catch them.

Magical troops (priest,angel,warlock,demonic angel,etc) get area effect and chain reaction/lightning attacks, to hurt or hinder enemy troops and or terrain(eg icing the ground to stop mounted charges and generally slow movement,raising walls of earth to block ranged attacks,firewalls to quickly sow destruction throughout an enemy horde) maybe some monster summoning/banishing effects too, and healing other units.These will be troops to have on hand to make up for holes left open in a defense setup.

You actually go into some depth in this last part, and actually flush out some details, so I don't particularly have a problem with it.

If you'll notice though, I just changed like 6 paragraphs into like 7 sentences. I don't think anyone would really mind if you got really into depth about your ideas, but most of what you're saying is just padding.

In anycase, that's just my two cents. To reiterate, I do not mean any of this to be demeaning or offending, only a friendly critique/suggestion at worst.

[Splinterz]

Alsatia01 hit the nail on the head: here's a tip for the original poster: http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/

As for the selling of slave eud's..... hmm let me think, is there any way I can abuse those euds before selling them? For instance, making them fight against their will against my enemies?

[MrFancyPants]

okay mrfancypants thank you. Well it likely goes without saying that I think THEY and YOU are being ridiculous to blow this off. I'd maybe have expected something more along the lines of pointing out how its consistent with something in the game that players should have to sell them to get rid of them but that hasn't happened yet. I'm getting arguments that seem more like: "Well, it didn't occur to me first, so noone else should be offended by it."

But the root of the problem is that you have invented a story in which bad things are happening, and are blaming the game for your imagination. Make up a different story, and the "problem" goes away. How about this:
Eudaemons are spirits who exist in another plane, possibly they are the souls of dead warriors.
Through the use of Eudaemon marks, people can summon one of these spirits, and offer them a contract.
For their service, the spirits are paid in Blood of Zeus and the excitement of returning to battle (spirit realms are notoriously dull).
The contracts can be sold.

Now, they're mercenaries who are being paid and enjoy their work. In which case "dismissing" them would be wrong, because it would be unilaterally breaking their contract. Ask any contractor how much they would hate that.

Problem solved and your proposed solution invalidated! QED.

[cyc2u]

Slavery? LOL! Makes you sound like one of them annoying social justice warriors from college who need their safe space and complain over Pocahantas halloween costumes. Time to chill. Its a game.

[R27377783]

Your posts would probably be taken more seriously if you wrote them correctly/differently. I cannot stress this enough, I do not mean it as an insult, but you write like a middle schooler.

Your trying sugar coat an obvious insult to my writing style what middle schooler do you know who writes like this? Are you a middle school teacher? At any rate I'm usually a "one poster"(figuratively) if my posts aren't fit for casual readers I'm okay with that, I almost prefer it, because it usually cuts down on the amount of people who also don't like to think hard about the subjects they read from even replying at all. Think of how much of both of our time would have been spared if you had TLR in the first place, once you saw it was too long and not saying anything you agree with or interested you? Anyway it backfires here because so many are wiling to post replies without even reading the entire post their going after. Well a little flame warring is no reason to change up how I do things so no point in debating about debate, it is what it is. btw if I feel the need to insult you its going to be about something you wrote, but probably not so much about how you wrote it, You write well enough that I know I don't need to school you on anything regarding grammar or diction in the WT forum..I know it seems like I have alot of time on my hands because I tend to write in long form and try to limit confusion by covering all angles of approach in one swipe (again which sometimes backfires if the reader doesn't care to read the whole thing)...but not really so much hence the 2 months of doing other stuff.
IF my long form loses some people it, my feeling is that wasn't meant/right for them. It should really bring home the reality that its "not about you" and except in the matter of transmitting the ideas and hopefully someday trying out some approximation of them in-game its not even really about me..its about the game and its devs. Noone is paying me to write any of this and I don't expect any kind of reward or compensation except possibly some day finding that the game has been made more interesting(to me at least) ..and less offensive in at most one or two regards that I've pointed out. Sure, if I see that it gets bad enough dev/mod side and they seem to feel the same way as monkeys here I'd probably take it to the next level of bashing the game in the media or something but the plan is/was to bring about the ideas leave em, return to clear up any legitimate questions or counter suggestions and get on with playing/living..but I always seem to forget that there are trolls on forums (and usually about 1-2 mods that love them and enable their mischief) who have made it there home and throw muck on anything that they seem to feel threatens the sanctity of that home or might give them an opportunity to look like a cute comedy alpha to the rest of the monkeys.

Thats okay though I'll stay on mission until its done..and trust me you will see less and less of my feeding the monkeys as I finalize my project. If nothing comes of my project thats not really up to me once I finalize and hit "post". By provoking me to an endless series of pointless debates about when they think its okay for someone to demand respect for humanity(symbolic in this case) or traditions or so called political correction or whatever when theres no way I'm going to take the cue of when to say when from a forum junkie..these apes are just extending their own torture of I guess "having" to read and reply to my posts. I don't know why the compulsion because thats what forum monkeys do maybe? idk. Anyone is free to block me(and my posts) at anytime and I encourage it for those who've made this forum their monkey pit. If someone doesn't like the post or its ideas then,keep calm its gonna be okay, this post is probably meant for the next player or maybe noone at all. You don't have to express their disdain for change in society as a whole here, and so far I'm not one of those responsible for much of it or I probably wouldn't have much time to even play WT or notice what should be done with Eudaemons, but I do (some months) so here we are.

[Alsatia01]

Your trying sugar coat an obvious insult to my writing style what middle schooler do you know who writes like this?

Yes genius, I was trying to sugar coat an insult by telling you multiple times, in multiple locations, that it was not intended to be an insult, and that it was to be in no way be a demeaning remark. Brilliant.

You're doing it again though, you're entire post could essentially be cut down into -

I'm not going to make my writing more efficient for the benefit of the people who read it, because I like writing this way.

You could have some brilliant ideas about the game for all I or anyone else knows, but that's going to be blotted out by the immense amount of useless information you cram into every single post.

Again, that's only my two cents, and should be regarded as only a friendly critique or suggestion at worst. You apparently have either disregarded my suggestion, or assumed I was being facetious, despite me taking the extra effort to be extremely sure, that it could be in no way, construed that way.

[R27377783]

Slavery? LOL! Makes you sound like one of them annoying social justice warriors from college who need their safe space and complain over Pocahantas halloween costumes. Time to chill. Its a game.

first of you won't ever get to decide for me when its time to "chill"..next you(and several other first responders sure are putting an awful lot of stigma on the use of the word "slavery" and identifying a logical correlation to the function of selling another "person" in the game. I'd like you to explain how it would matter if I WAS one of those kinds of persons you describe how does it invalidate the subject of the post? The issue with this thread is that a lot of replies are leaning towards making this a social political DEBATE about whether or not people should or should be able to complain about such things as "normalizing" the concept of "selling" other persons through the games helpful function (btw I do not disagree with the purpose of the function: to get rid of unnecessary Eudaemons btw in case thats where the real objection is with some of you). And then making it difficult to respond rationally by using loads of sarcasm. I know its fun,especially if thats what your used to in this forum but its not conducive to a rational debate, should there be an actual cause for debate.
If you can't make the correlation between the concept of selling another person in the game and slavery in the game, well thats just plain weird to me but okay I'll give that to you, everybody's life experience is somewhat different, i call b s...but if your objections hinge on a totally presumptuous and vague impression of my person irl being some kind of social worker or activist and not on the merit of the suggestion itself isn't that rather trolling? Its not fueling "debate" over the suggestion its fueling a flame and grammar nitpicking war as we've seen manifest so far.
So You weren't offended by the concept that you could sell your Eudaemons in the game like chattel, okay..I don't like it, but I can live with that..to each their own,your not likely someone I know personally so it'll probably never come up irl.
It did bother me though and regardless of you others insensitivites Its going to continue to bother me until it changes. Yeh I spoke up, can you live with THAT? The speculative caricature you've illustrated there doesn't fit reality, and I never mentioned anything about a pocahontas' dress. Whats the point of trying to peer into the void and draw a nearly random conclusion about my personality, I don't know why its so important for so many people here to draw a laugh out of the forums here, boredom? Lets say I am exactly how you describe..so how would that matter to the issue(or non issue as some would have it?)

In your example, the response to "attack" the lifestyle choices of the "activist", isn't even actually taking a position on the issue of the "Halloween dress" so to speak, its a cop out/stonewall of the debate itself. To me your either the kid of human waste who really doesn't give rats bottom about your fellow humanity or your just saying "I didn't think about it that far and I'm not going too." My personality, history of education,hipster attire, or whatever(being facetious here) irl doesn't validate or invalidate the subject of discussion any more or less than the type of shoes I wear, nor does the length of my post(to Alsatia) though it clearly can effect the response to the post itself. Which I'm okay with since it was never my intent to appeal to any one particular person's style or tastes.
The part about the Eudaemons was a fairly small percentage of my overall post..If its actually such a non-issue, why is it pretty much taking center stage of the discussion of this post? quite frankly I never would have expected this to even be debatable in 2016ad. Selling "persons" almost always equals some form of slavery irl so I used the word and even without any relative content it still fits. Some aspects of any adventure game tend to be reflections of real life or else few would be able to even grasp their concepts enough to play them. Also ideas and culture are transmitted through a game just as easily if not easier being immersive than if it were a pamphlet manifesto written by an extremist. I'm not the first to complain about an unsavory and relatively NEW characteristic in some crappy game (which I still think was not intentional) and I certainly wont be the last..if this bothers you and a few other posters then thats pretty sad but I'd suggest getting used to it..not every gamer is an escapist. You should keep in mind that I did not believe it was the developers intent to suggest that slavery is an acceptable form of commerce or even a facet of their game world so I approached it as an unfortunate oversight and I still believe it is. Neither did I imagine that so many would have such nonchalant attitudes toward the issue of "people" trafficking and what amounts to a (though perhaps accidental) depiction of it. Maybe a better question would be how many players here would like to see people trafficking/slavery fully introduced into the game as a feature?..some honest answers outing the semi-human garbage among us will probably shed some light on why this debate has grown so far out of proportion.

[R27377783]

Hold all the presses, developers. Someone's going all politically correct in this thread when it comes to "enslaving" and "selling" in the same sense. I wonder how many games out there are going to be affected by such now.

Answer me this then wiseguy nevermind that I like to use the term "slavery". In your mind is the immorality of selling a "person" merely a political issue for you? Something we should all just vote about and go home whatever the outcome? okay if its a little bit more than a political debate to you then continue: In the interest of staying on topic of the post, is the questionabity of a video game,comic book or any other form of entertainment media inadvertantly or otherwise, subtlety "normalizing" the concept of "selling" a person... simply political question/debate to you? If you don't think its a big deal why does it seem to bother you or is just so damn funny that someone else thinks it is? IS slavery/human trafficking a laughing matter to you?

[R27377783]

"sell" Eudaemons. It reminds me of slavery. I don't know if these ar supposed to be demons or whatever but it sends a bad message anyway, especially since people tend to refer to them as "Kids" the result is people are encouraged to "sell" their "kids". All you had to do was turn the word into "dismiss

In a virtual game in a virtual world such as WT is...a eudi is an inanimate object. Call it a "kid" or a "eudi" it is virtual. You refer to it as a "kid" and as a rl "kid" who is being sold...and should be dismissed instead. My question is...why are you dismissing the "kid" from your family? Dismiss means to allow them to leave the table or some thing. But this is not rl it is a virtual world where selling is preferred. You are given 1 free but then have to do things to "earn" another one. In rl you dont "earn" kids. You create them between a man and woman. Just words for thought.

"correlation" "association" these are real things. And probably good percentages of the reasons some people play avatar games vicariously in the first place. Everybody wants sit back and reflect on how they'd do as a knight/archer/mage in a besieged fantasy world kingdom.

[R27377783]

POST TO ALL: Heres an awesome question for the updated debate and to get back on track with the topic of at least the Eudaemon sales question..: How many people commenting here even AT ALL care what the button says as long as it does the same thing? If you don't care about THAT, why on Earth would it matter to you that "I" or anyone else DOES care? I've stated why I think it shouldn't say "sell" if this is a debatable subject then I think its about time someone came up with a reason why it SHOULD say "sell". SO far only one person came up with a plausible explanation as to why it maybe might not suggest "person" trafficking. I find it plausible but not a sufficient explanation/argument nor do I think that was the idea being used at inception..I'm just not sold on THAT idea. Even if were true there's too much implication not backed up by any storyline.They should change the word on the button so there need be no ambiguity about the implications. That was my suggestion the rest of that section of the original post was just supporting argument..and the resulting debates have just been about society , sociopolitical trends and various forum personalities doing their usual posturing oh and about sylphs which has no relationship to the OP. POLI-Sci is discussions are not even allowed in the forum rules anyway and I'd prefer it not show up anymore on this post. For me slavery/human trafficking is not up for political debate if there is a debate about it at all its a moral one, and I'm not willing to debate with anyone who doesn't already see the wrong in it.

[Alsatia01]

POST TO ALL: Heres an awesome question for the updated debate and to get back on track with the topic of at least the Eudaemon sales question..: How many people commenting here even AT ALL care what the button says as long as it does the same thing? If you don't care about THAT, why on Earth would it matter to you that "I" or anyone else DOES care?

You're essentially saying one of two things -

"'Selling' eudaemon is slavery. Therefore, if you don't agree with me, you support slavery."

Or

"I think 'selling' eudaemon is like slavery, therefore you should change the game to suite my preferences."

So my question to you would be the question I already asked -

Please demonstrate how having a virtual eudaemon that follows you around, is equivalent to owning slaves. Better yet, demonstrate how any of these 'issues' have any demonstrable harm.

If you could show any evidence why this should be an issue, you might get some sympathy. Slavery is a real issue in some parts of the world, and what you're doing cheapens actual slavery.

[AdaJames]

Yes genius, I was trying to sugar coat an insult by telling you multiple times, in multiple locations, that it was not intended to be an insult, and that it was to be in no way be a demeaning remark. Brilliant.

Something that I have noticed with certain segments of the political spectrum for quite a while now. They take things very personally when you disagree with them. It is like you spat in their holy water or took a whizz on whichever idol or holy book they believe in.

Rather ironic, really, in that they are the ones usually demanding tolerance, but invariably they are the most intolerant one in the whole debate. It doesn't matter which -phobia or -ism you are looking at, the one who are most -phobic or -ist are the ones throwing the -phobia or -ism phrase around like candy during Halloween.

[Meikura001]

Answer me this then wiseguy nevermind that I like to use the term "slavery". In your mind is the immorality of selling a "person" merely a political issue for you? Something we should all just vote about and go home whatever the outcome? okay if its a little bit more than a political debate to you then continue: In the interest of staying on topic of the post, is the questionabity of a video game,comic book or any other form of entertainment media inadvertantly or otherwise, subtlety "normalizing" the concept of "selling" a person... simply political question/debate to you? If you don't think its a big deal why does it seem to bother you or is just so damn funny that someone else thinks it is? IS slavery/human trafficking a laughing matter to you?

It's just a f<beep>in' pixel, mate. Has no likeness to any real person, living or dead, or at least that is what I, among other gamers out there, like to think upon.

And for anything, this is turning out to be a politically-fueled type of thread (when you start being all politically charged and correct) more than a feedback type of the same. You should have stopped somewhere in page 1.

[Splinterz]

For me slavery/human trafficking is not up for political debate if there is a debate about it at all its a moral one, and I'm not willing to debate with anyone who doesn't already see the wrong in it.

I see your point, you only want to debate the subject with people who already agree that slavery and trafficking is wrong. Preaching to the converted? Why not actually take the debate to the slavers and human traffickers around the world? That would be a worthwhile project. There is or was an entire movement of Abolitionists already dedicated to eradicating slavery. The Abolitionists would not care for your views as it seems you have missed the point.

The attention you're getting on this forum has nothing to do with your chosen topic of conversation.

[R27377783]

I'm not saying you weren't also trying to be helpful and offer constructive critisism thats obvious to me as well but you also meant it as an insult and your disclaimer did not convince me no matter how many times you rendered it. YOu read my intentions correctly I do not intend to adjust my writing style to suit a few particular readers, and I'm willing to accept the failure of the message if the window dressing does not suit enough persons to have them consider the propositions. Thats fair enough, I'm not a professional writer and I'm not invested in the game. SInce you have no idea where I'm eventually going with this forum project, I don't consider you or anyone else to be in the best position to determine what information I should leave out for the sake of brevity. As for your personal preference of how I sho9uld convey my sentiments regarding the Eudaemon's again you don't even share the sentiment so how could you possibly be in the best position to tell me how to convey my opinion on the matter? Some of the insight you posses on how to address this particular "crowd" probably comes from experience in dealing with them so I appreciate your paraphrases yes they for the most part were fairly good summations. Its very easy to do such a rthing in hindsight but the OP is already written and needs no further editing. I acan't account for the reactions. Its seems that the issue of the Eudaemons took prioority for most people because they found it to be humorous that someone could make such a correlation. I also can't account for the upbringing or social refinement of the members of this community. I don't expect to. If devs aren't sensitive enough to take it seriously and the community is not sensitive enough to take it seriously I'm not going to put much more effort than I already have to convince them. I'll give it some time and if I feel like putting more effort into it it will be in making a big deal about it elsewhere where it will be seen with the same level severity that I see it as..The words I've used should have been sufficient in making the correlation, and the "fix" is so simple that the only thing that could hamper the implementation is a difference of sensitivity/concern level surrounding the issue. If there is such a heavy line drawn there on an issue like that between the factions of this forum and the devs of this game and the wider community or myself alone then it clearly belongs there at this time. If noone is willing to budge then noone will budge, and the status quo has been achieved. I'm not going to try to behave like some kind of prophet that can change everyone's mind with the wave of their hand. Go ahead devs leave it as is..maybe I'll be the last person to notice or care, and its unlikely to effect the sale of balens anytime soon. I've said my piece on that issue more than once. Alsatia thank you for your efforts! I don't FULLY agree with the solution even if it has merit. I still don't know how to address this community with my ideas to maximize the interest level and minimize the shenanigan level and I probably never will because only the original posting of the solutions are of any great priority to me personally. Going back and forth with you and some of the others is more experimental and more a credit to my appellation at some of the popular attitudes here on certain sensitive issues and also due to my own arrogance and argumentativeness. I'm used to people who acknowledge logic and know when their argument has been reduced to piddling..not people who argue for the sake of arguing ,some vague forms of character assassination or having a good time, so I feel that I'm out of my element here and running out of free time to deal with it on this level. Again thank you Alsatia for the intruiging if mostly fruitless discourse.