Is it ever possible to give back the old skills and old talents to knighted players?

[R238423534]

Like what the title says.
Now holding enough henna for activating (both paths?) knighthood but still like the old skills too much to make the switch.

[Wraithraiser]

You must not have ever seen KH skills in action to want the old skills back. Old skills damage is like baby **** compared to KH skills.

[R262181389]

Once you use KH skills, I don't think you will still want the old skills.

[Zeak42]

The problem with knighthood is the non flexibility. Once someone goes knighthood they are stuck with either pure attack or pure defense/healing (dont know the other archer knighthood path that well). The old skills may not be as strong damage wise, but they are much more flexible and allow for different kinds of play. For example as a mage i sometimes prefer doing pure damage and sometimes a mix of heal and damage, as the needs of the party dictates. Once majority of players are knighted battles become too predictable because everyone will use the same strategy. To me the flexibility of old skills is what makes battles interesting rather than who can do the most damage the fastest.

[Mentor_MrEUS]

Like what the title says.
Now holding enough henna for activating (both paths?) knighthood but still like the old skills too much to make the switch.

You can switch between paths, if you have the tatoo requirements met for both. The old skills do offer a slightly more dynamic play, but in the end usually you had a certain set that you always played with or were comfortable in not resetting every type of fight.

I personally am enjoying the archer skills they are quite nicer in strength than the older ones. I am not sure of the other classes though.

[Wraithraiser]

The problem with knighthood is the non flexibility. Once someone goes knighthood they are stuck with either pure attack or pure defense/healing (dont know the other archer knighthood path that well). The old skills may not be as strong damage wise, but they are much more flexible and allow for different kinds of play. For example as a mage i sometimes prefer doing pure damage and sometimes a mix of heal and damage, as the needs of the party dictates. Once majority of players are knighted battles become too predictable because everyone will use the same strategy. To me the flexibility of old skills is what makes battles interesting rather than who can do the most damage the fastest.

Like the mentor said you can switch easily if you have the reqs for both... plenty of mages already do this, and knights too. Archers are meatheads they only need one set.

[Mentor_MrEUS]

Like the mentor said you can switch easily if you have the reqs for both... plenty of mages already do this, and knights too. Archers are meatheads they only need one set.

Sometimes we can be...

;-)

[Zeak42]

Like the mentor said you can switch easily if you have the reqs for both... plenty of mages already do this, and knights too. Archers are meatheads they only need one set.

Switching between sets isnt being flexible. It's still a rigid system. You choose one branch or the other. The flexibility of the old skills lies in the ability to pick and choose from each branch. Take mage (since I know it most). The healing branch of old skils has your restoration, suntora,purification, blessed light, meteor, mana shield, and anthem On the attack branch of old skills you have delphic thunder frenzy, thunderer, damnation, Delphic hell thunder, icebolt, and delphic fire tornado. However, you can have both brances active at the same time and allow for great flexibility in what skills you want to have on your skill bar. With knighthood, even if you are able to choose each path as long as you meet the requirements, you still cant mix and match skills. Thus the knighthood is still a rigid skill system of either one or the other, never able to choose from both.

[R238423534]

Well...my archer lost major progress in game, so now I have returned to play the knight.
Apparently, Wartune doesn't love knights.
My game spouse got knighted for months, and he hits like a beast due to the much higher ATK, Res-Red and Intensity boosts from KH. 1-on-1 he could finish me with only the rage maker skill (not even the new ultimate slasher).
But for TOK and arena, he could barely do 1 or 2 AOE per fight, due to the 80 rage consumption, and he cannot steal rage or stun any more.
I, on the other hand, with a measly 420k PATK, 4k Res-Red and 7k intensity, could use the 50-rage AOE every 2 seconds and the 100-rage one every 15 seconds, plus rage stealing and stunning, seemed more helpful than him.
Not to mention, he only has 2 basic skills when using the Frigga shield (Fidelity) to protect me, while I can shield up and spam AOE and don't need an Oracle kid for TOK (well...he doesn't need it coz he's much stronger, but he would need it if he were as weak as me).
And his shield lasts for only 2 turns while mine lasts 5 turns, although I really envy the group shielding ability.
He said he had lost the +10 rage passive and had to use rage maker skill to make rage (+30 rage per use & 2 sec CD), while my rage maker (Slasher) also regains 25 rage (15 from active skill & 10 from passive skill) per use, plus +10 rage per action for all other skills.
His new ultimate slasher costs 20 rage & AOE is 80 rage. Mine are 10 rage (did NOT upgrade the talent for it) & 50 and 100 (so I do have 2 AOEs and one of them is spammable).
The awakening stealing is quite nice, but most kh heroes hit harder than their sylphs so...
The ability to target players is nice, but we already have 3 runes that can do that, and 30 rage + 30-sec CD for a 100% PATK skill is arguably worthwhile.
My feelings is that if not for the much higher stats and higher skill strength, knights are really nerfed bad after kh.
My toon had been inactive for 7 months, and I either sold or wasted all spare items before leaving. Now living with only lvl61 clothing, and I'm not spending any more (not event another $4.99 recharge from me).
If some bad things didn't happen on the archer, maybe I would just get KH and never look back. But now I'm a knight again, I'm very unimpressed by the new skills.
And even as archer, losing the ability to suck blood and losing the guaranteed +5 rage per crit and the +2% dmg per crit plus the 10% HP loss is still not a great thing.
Not to mention, the revised old archer skills are also too good to miss, especially the 1-sec CD AOE that guarantees to make tons of rage if there are more than 3 targets.
If you are a regular archer with 45 starting rage, you can reach 150 rage in 2 turns by hitting mobs or in TOK/arena. That is something still hard to forgo, although the KH damage output and passives are worth the lost.
I had never played a mage far enough to approach KH, but by just looking at the new mage skills I would probably not want to be a mage after KH (no offense).
If we can use the regular skills after KH, it's still arguable which would be at greater advantage if two players have identical stats.

[R238423534]

even as archer, there's still something i miss too much to go kh.

example:
4v4 arena, 8 targets on each side,
archer with 45 initial rage,
assume lag takes 5 seconds per turn, so skill CD decreases by 5 between skills,

old skill rotation:
skill damage rage
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 80 (assume 70% crit chance; skill has maxed talent = 1 sec CD)
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
Total 10720% (+2000% QTE) 150

new skill rotation:
skill damage rage
cluster 400% x 8 45-30+10=25 (30 sec CD)
multi 260% x 2 25-10+10=25
aimed 190% x 1 25+20+10=55
multi 260% x 2 55-10+10=55
aimed 190% x 1 55+20+10=85
multi 260% x 2 85-10+10=85
cluster 400% x 8 85-30+10=65 (30 sec CD)
multi 260% x 2 65-10+10=65
aimed 190% x 1 65+20+10=95
multi 260% x 2 95-10+10=95
Total 9570% 95

of course, in a real battle, there's high chance that the eudaemons are down after the first 400% AOE, which prevents them from getting heals from eudaemons, and you can hit down a target with fatal strike every once in a while, so the archer using KH skills will still kill faster.

assume 4 targets are down after 400% damage is taken (without healing):
old skill rotation:
skill damage rage
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 80
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 8 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 4 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 4 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 4 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 4 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 4 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 4 150
lunatic 134% (+25% QTE) x 4 150
Total 6968% (+1300% QTE) 150

new skill rotation:
skill damage rage
cluster 400% x 8 45-30+10=25 (30 sec CD)
multi 260% x 2 25-10+10=25
aimed 190% x 1 25+20+10=55
multi 260% x 2 55-10+10=55
aimed 190% x 1 55+20+10=85
multi 260% x 2 85-10+10=85
cluster 400% x 4 85-30+10=65 (30 sec CD)
multi 260% x 2 65-10+10=65
aimed 190% x 1 65+20+10=95
multi 260% x 2 95-10+10=95
Total 7970% 95

[MrFancyPants]

even as archer, there's still something i miss too much to go kh.

example:
4v4 arena, 8 targets on each side,
archer with 45 initial rage,
assume lag takes 5 seconds per turn, so skill CD decreases by 5 between skills,

(redacted for brevity)

There are a few problems with this comparison. It ignores the huge time to process 16 attacks (1 from each player/eudaemon, often around 15 seconds) and sylphs. Vs. a full slate of enemies, a non-KH archer can use LF every round, but the KH archer can use cluster every other round, maybe every third at worst. And cluster bomb CD will continue while sylphed, so it's more like:
non-KH: LF, LF, LF, sylph..., LF
KH: cluster, something else, cluster, sylph..., cluster

Those numbers come out a lot less favorably to the old skills.

I still agree that the old skills granted more flexibility to players, but for damage comparisons, you're pretty much always going to lose to KH skills (on the upper branch, at least).

[R238423534]

There are a few problems with this comparison. It ignores the huge time to process 16 attacks (1 from each player/eudaemon, often around 15 seconds) and sylphs. Vs. a full slate of enemies, a non-KH archer can use LF every round, but the KH archer can use cluster every other round, maybe every third at worst. And cluster bomb CD will continue while sylphed, so it's more like:
non-KH: LF, LF, LF, sylph..., LF
KH: cluster, something else, cluster, sylph..., cluster

Those numbers come out a lot less favorably to the old skills.

I still agree that the old skills granted more flexibility to players, but for damage comparisons, you're pretty much always going to lose to KH skills (on the upper branch, at least).

There's no doubt regular archer can't compare to KH archers on damage output. With a little luck, crack shot could proc 3 times in a row, which is +90%, plus the 60% from hunting leader, a 400-680% skill with both buffs is almost a guaranteed KO for peers.
It's more like, with old skills only 1 skill is needed and 1 QTE, while with new skills the player would have to constantly resort to the 2 basic skills until they could use something else (for rage or CD).
Losing the guaranteed +5 per crit is not a small thing (worse than losing the guaranteed +10 per action for knights).
In most situations, either the higher skill strengths are not needed (weak targets), or the longer CD & higher rage requirement (and lower rage regain) makes it harder to get a skill fired off.
Most old skills have shorter CD and lower rage (e.g. lunatic vs. cluster, piercer vs raid, etc.).
It's arguable which is "better", but more like different situations call for different skill sets.
And for knights...I don't know if I would appreciate the new skills at all, but I guess KH is not an option unless we don't want to join the high BR club.