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Outland Matching

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  • Dephron
    started a topic Outland Matching

    Outland Matching

    hi guys.
    i knew too many post opened about that before but i just wanna know if game developers gonna do something about that. tonight my guild faced to Nacc and passport`s Guild (skyfall ) in outland. then i checked the ranking and found out their guild br total 42m before register outland.nacc br alone 33m also passports br 32m and they have couple more high br guys who dropped to their br around 5m br even their actual br around 20m so those guys get naked before register outland.

    ok i get it almost everyone does same thing they dropping their guild br for register.

    my guild has only 8 players in and our total guild br just over 38m. now i just want ask to mentors whos looking at here

    Is that really fair guys?

  • Meikura001
    replied
    They should also move all solo events (Outland Exploration, Titan Temple and Time Portal) out of Outlands.
    I know Berdim's employed now as he moved up north in Cloud City (Speed Clearance). However, there are two NPCs (Lycus and Lara) that are out of a job no thanks to the devs that could be re-employed with those; and a third one could be made.

    Leave a comment:


  • R238423534
    replied
    Originally posted by MrFancyPants View Post
    Still, given the wide disparities in guild strength, a random assignment of guilds to teams would be pretty much expected to result in one dominant team in every map. Even matches would be just as rare. What might improve is a reduced need to jump guilds, since there are a bunch out there with almost no participants, so an active, strong guild could have a better chance than if it assigns groupings by BR rank.

    If your expectation is fair matchups, random assignment won't get you there. The current system is more likely to give that result, with close in strength guilds assigned to separate teams on the same map, and even then it rarely works. I say fair matches are an unreachable goal, so the preference should be given to not forcing the second-strongest guild to always lose to the strongest, or skip out to a different guild entirely.
    So we are in agreement that random assignment would be better, but for completely opposite reasons.
    Actually...I don't support random matching, TBH.
    Fair matching (even powers) is more sensible.
    At a minimum, all 4 teams should have equal numbers and equal total strength, and the result should depend on how hard they are willing to work on PG.
    Also, ranking should make stripping BR impossible.
    Right now it is entirely not the case.

    Guild size and BR are not taken into account when they fill a map.
    From the top guild's end, this might not seem as obvious, but if you happen to be in a guild below rank 75 cross-server, it's common to see a map with 2 or 3 colors having 300+ players and having more than 20 players logged on in the past 7 days, while 1 or 2 colors having fewer than 50 TOTAL population and usually only 1 or 2 logged on in the past 7 days, on the FIRST day of Outlands each month.
    Matching is done the night after registration. The guild BR is taken the night after registration. If people jump guild the same day, their BR is included in the matching. If people jump the next day, they would not have been included on the first day.
    This strongly suggests they in fact did not take guild BR into consideration when filling the 16 spots on the same map. They just take the 16 guilds being within +/-[1-15] ranks of each other, and fill the map in a round-robin.
    This isn't bad grouping policy if no guild registers late, no one strips guild BR, and no one jumps guild. But this is not the case for now.

    The root problem is that grouping is fixed for a month, but neither team membership nor guild membership is fixed.
    Late registrants can join a map to change the situation.
    People can jump guild to change the situation.
    But the grouping won't change to reflect the situation change.
    That means the grouping is always outdated for as long as any change shall occur.
    That's why I personally still prefer the old Crystal War style, with everyone re-matched for every crystal war, and remove Post Grab completely. That's an event created to encourage guild drama.
    They should also move all solo events (Outland Exploration, Titan Temple and Time Portal) out of Outlands.
    But I don't think they'd make any changes. Or say, it's probably easier to change the entire player base than to change the game.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrFancyPants
    replied
    Originally posted by R238423534 View Post
    With uniform randomness, those who get top rewards (800 crystals) everyday and those who get bottom rewards (100 crystals) everyday should have a much smaller percentage than those who get median rewards (average 400 per day, with some days above and some days below).
    That would mean a smaller number of guilds on a rigged match and get 800 or 100 everyday, and a larger number of guilds are on an even match and could hold some posts, gain some and lose some, on a dynamic equilibrium centering the average (11-20 posts).
    Right now the reality is that the even matches are only a mere 2%, while the rest are all rigged.
    Apparently, if they have enough alt guilds to jump around, or guilds on their server generally have no loyalty issues, then it would be no problem, everyone can get 800 crystals per day.
    The other noticeable thing is that the second try is generally successful, because people would jump only if their new guild is at advantage. But because more guild jumps could happen later, the situation could change to the point of failing the second try as well.

    And, to my knowledge, grouping is not random at all. All the system does is to fill a map of 16 slots (each consisting of a registered guild) in a round robin, based on the guild BR rank the night after registration.
    If you happen to be rank 1, 5, 9, or 13 on that map, you get 800 per day and always top spot in crystal war. Everyone else needs to jump (or beg the big team to give them the second spot).
    Still, given the wide disparities in guild strength, a random assignment of guilds to teams would be pretty much expected to result in one dominant team in every map. Even matches would be just as rare. What might improve is a reduced need to jump guilds, since there are a bunch out there with almost no participants, so an active, strong guild could have a better chance than if it assigns groupings by BR rank.

    If your expectation is fair matchups, random assignment won't get you there. The current system is more likely to give that result, with close in strength guilds assigned to separate teams on the same map, and even then it rarely works. I say fair matches are an unreachable goal, so the preference should be given to not forcing the second-strongest guild to always lose to the strongest, or skip out to a different guild entirely.
    So we are in agreement that random assignment would be better, but for completely opposite reasons.

    Leave a comment:


  • R238423534
    replied
    Originally posted by Meikura001 View Post
    I will have to concur with this as I have my own ship that I haven't jumped or stripped the last few months. I am one of those who wind up with either a good map or an even match one. The last 2 months, we've been on the same team which has us grab 41+ (well 61 considering the other three teams have been dead for quite some time); and we're on opposing teams that we communicate in securing 31 posts each (for 600 daily) with alternating turns for CCW (Rank 1 and 2). The other two teams have little to no one at all on any given day (pretty much we start a post grab, light up all the crystals and take off since no one shows up anyways). I can't wait until next month to see what it holds, but each day I am developing my units as my other half is doing hers that will increase the overall BR of our guild that we might not be in the same type of match-ups come the future times. I still contact the friends I made across platforms to see where they got stuck into.

    The big thing is that some guilds would jump when they see a few high BR people come into the field. PG isn't won by just brute force alone. If people have the numbers, some can keep those opposing forces pinned down while others just roll around and light up the crystals from right under them; lather, rinse, and repeat. The same goes for CCW if people know when to strike and watch their energy usage. I've seen folks hit others that have less than 10k on their team to get small amounts and waste the 60/30 which could have gone into blessing defense (800). Then there are times I would see folks just bless away without even setting foot into combat (or feel they can get more for their buck if they attacked someone and wind up getting someone they can win against).

    Those who jump on the sight of big BR, leave their old guild wide open for opposing forces to grow on. And most of the time, they might not get a better map where they are the top of the food chain. But, I will leave that to them and their devices. I welcome any challenge from anyone in my grid on any day.
    Very interesting observations
    My alt's guild had quite some good days when people didn't jump, because the other 3 colors were usually dead like the ones on your map. I was alone in there and unopposed.
    But ever since the time when most top guilds started jumping around and using alt guilds to hold spots on a lower map, I almost always ended up with 1 or more colors changed from dead guild with less than 15 people to active guild with size above 90, 20+ people above 20M BR and active for PG every day.
    It's entirely pointless if they not only outpower you for 1000 times, but also outnumber you by 100 times (actual actives are possibly some 40-60 daily players).
    I've even met people who enjoyed doing PG and refused to make a deal, and wouldn't stop attacking until hit the other 3 colors down to zero points in crystal war. They said they were excited to defend against 4 attacks every day and wanted it to continue (so I gladly complied by starting 4 battles with no participants every day).

    Leave a comment:


  • R238423534
    replied
    Originally posted by MrFancyPants View Post
    Considering that only 1/4 of teams can possibly be in a situation where they can take 41+ posts, having 25% of them get that on the first try isn't exactly surprising. You're misinterpreting what random would mean in this case - your results are perfectly representative of a random distribution. It's like choosing a random person on Earth, and expecting the odds to be the same they come from every country.
    The count of people who jump guilds is interesting, though, as is the result of jumping.
    With uniform randomness, those who get top rewards (800 crystals) everyday and those who get bottom rewards (100 crystals) everyday should have a much smaller percentage than those who get median rewards (average 400 per day, with some days above and some days below).
    That would mean a smaller number of guilds on a rigged match and get 800 or 100 everyday, and a larger number of guilds are on an even match and could hold some posts, gain some and lose some, on a dynamic equilibrium centering the average (11-20 posts).
    Right now the reality is that the even matches are only a mere 2%, while the rest are all rigged.
    Apparently, if they have enough alt guilds to jump around, or guilds on their server generally have no loyalty issues, then it would be no problem, everyone can get 800 crystals per day.
    The other noticeable thing is that the second try is generally successful, because people would jump only if their new guild is at advantage. But because more guild jumps could happen later, the situation could change to the point of failing the second try as well.

    And, to my knowledge, grouping is not random at all. All the system does is to fill a map of 16 slots (each consisting of a registered guild) in a round robin, based on the guild BR rank the night after registration.
    If you happen to be rank 1, 5, 9, or 13 on that map, you get 800 per day and always top spot in crystal war. Everyone else needs to jump (or beg the big team to give them the second spot).
    If you registered late, you always fill from the lowest map. If other big guilds don't register late and don't use alt guilds to register (and jump), you are safe.
    But right now with most top guilds using alts guilds to hold spots on a lower map or jumping around to get better rewards, one jump is possibly not enough to secure a good spot.
    Of course there are lesser serious guilds who don't care about minimum rewards every month, and small guilds that have no alt guilds to jump to and most guilds on their server have loyalty issues, then they can't use this tactic and have to live with low rewards every month.
    I guess the devs think that those who care more about the game and bother to maintain alt guilds should get more rewards, but server culture is something most have no control over, and most Wartuners are too old to listen to someone they don't fear. It's sad but true.

    Leave a comment:


  • Meikura001
    replied
    Originally posted by R238423534 View Post
    Instead of arguing over opinions, my team spent a week surveying the servers to collect statistics.
    Of the 200+ guilds on the 90 servers being sampled, approximately some 73% of the guilds initially got on a bad match (could not hold more than 1 post), 25% got a good match (could hold 41+ posts), and the remaining 2% got an even match (had to fight every day to keep their posts).
    Of the 73% that didn't get on a good team initially, about 40% of them had jumped for a better map, which is about 29% of the total population.
    Of the 29% that had jumped for a better map, about 15% of them got a second bad map due to new joiners in opponent guilds. They are about 4.5% of the total population.
    In other words, only some 27% could get on a doable map on their first try.
    I wouldn't call this matching pattern 'random' or 'uniform'. Statistically 'random' means equal chance of getting any one of the three situations, which is apparently not the case for now.
    I will have to concur with this as I have my own ship that I haven't jumped or stripped the last few months. I am one of those who wind up with either a good map or an even match one. The last 2 months, we've been on the same team which has us grab 41+ (well 61 considering the other three teams have been dead for quite some time); and we're on opposing teams that we communicate in securing 31 posts each (for 600 daily) with alternating turns for CCW (Rank 1 and 2). The other two teams have little to no one at all on any given day (pretty much we start a post grab, light up all the crystals and take off since no one shows up anyways). I can't wait until next month to see what it holds, but each day I am developing my units as my other half is doing hers that will increase the overall BR of our guild that we might not be in the same type of match-ups come the future times. I still contact the friends I made across platforms to see where they got stuck into.

    The big thing is that some guilds would jump when they see a few high BR people come into the field. PG isn't won by just brute force alone. If people have the numbers, some can keep those opposing forces pinned down while others just roll around and light up the crystals from right under them; lather, rinse, and repeat. The same goes for CCW if people know when to strike and watch their energy usage. I've seen folks hit others that have less than 10k on their team to get small amounts and waste the 60/30 which could have gone into blessing defense (800). Then there are times I would see folks just bless away without even setting foot into combat (or feel they can get more for their buck if they attacked someone and wind up getting someone they can win against).

    Those who jump on the sight of big BR, leave their old guild wide open for opposing forces to grow on. And most of the time, they might not get a better map where they are the top of the food chain. But, I will leave that to them and their devices. I welcome any challenge from anyone in my grid on any day.

    Leave a comment:


  • R238423534
    replied
    Originally posted by aliceRe View Post
    you have WAY TOO MUCH TIME TO WASTE!
    Why is it waste of time to investigate a problem?
    And why is it not waste of time to flame other people online?
    I don't know. You tell me.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrFancyPants
    replied
    Originally posted by R238423534 View Post
    Instead of arguing over opinions, my team spent a week surveying the servers to collect statistics.
    Of the 200+ guilds on the 90 servers being sampled, approximately some 73% of the guilds initially got on a bad match (could not hold more than 1 post), 25% got a good match (could hold 41+ posts), and the remaining 2% got an even match (had to fight every day to keep their posts).
    Of the 73% that didn't get on a good team initially, about 40% of them had jumped for a better map, which is about 29% of the total population.
    Of the 29% that had jumped for a better map, about 15% of them got a second bad map due to new joiners in opponent guilds. They are about 4.5% of the total population.
    In other words, only some 27% could get on a doable map on their first try.
    I wouldn't call this matching pattern 'random' or 'uniform'. Statistically 'random' means equal chance of getting any one of the three situations, which is apparently not the case for now.
    Considering that only 1/4 of teams can possibly be in a situation where they can take 41+ posts, having 25% of them get that on the first try isn't exactly surprising. You're misinterpreting what random would mean in this case - your results are perfectly representative of a random distribution. It's like choosing a random person on Earth, and expecting the odds to be the same they come from every country.
    The count of people who jump guilds is interesting, though, as is the result of jumping.

    Leave a comment:


  • aliceRe
    replied
    Originally posted by R238423534 View Post
    Instead of arguing over opinions, my team spent a week surveying the servers to collect statistics.
    Of the 200+ guilds on the 90 servers being sampled, approximately some 73% of the guilds initially got on a bad match (could not hold more than 1 post), 25% got a good match (could hold 41+ posts), and the remaining 2% got an even match (had to fight every day to keep their posts).
    Of the 73% that didn't get on a good team initially, about 40% of them had jumped for a better map, which is about 29% of the total population.
    Of the 29% that had jumped for a better map, about 15% of them got a second bad map due to new joiners in opponent guilds. They are about 4.5% of the total population.
    In other words, only some 27% could get on a doable map on their first try.
    I wouldn't call this matching pattern 'random' or 'uniform'. Statistically 'random' means equal chance of getting any one of the three situations, which is apparently not the case for now.
    you have WAY TOO MUCH TIME TO WASTE!

    Leave a comment:


  • R238423534
    replied
    Instead of arguing over opinions, my team spent a week surveying the servers to collect statistics.
    Of the 200+ guilds on the 90 servers being sampled, approximately some 73% of the guilds initially got on a bad match (could not hold more than 1 post), 25% got a good match (could hold 41+ posts), and the remaining 2% got an even match (had to fight every day to keep their posts).
    Of the 73% that didn't get on a good team initially, about 40% of them had jumped for a better map, which is about 29% of the total population.
    Of the 29% that had jumped for a better map, about 15% of them got a second bad map due to new joiners in opponent guilds. They are about 4.5% of the total population.
    In other words, only some 27% could get on a doable map on their first try.
    I wouldn't call this matching pattern 'random' or 'uniform'. Statistically 'random' means equal chance of getting any one of the three situations, which is apparently not the case for now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arlad
    replied
    hey, at least he finally do something instead of just whining and waiting someone else "fix" his problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • williamboss
    replied
    Originally posted by Dephron View Post
    well we had to move another guild since skyfall made their guild br up to 648m.theres no point to to be in our guild since we re only 60m guild br

    60m Guild against 648m Guild
    So you blame them for jumping guild, and you do it now yourself, whow you make an excellent point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cattah
    replied
    Dephron i told u stop crying lol or make ticket lolx10k

    life is not a fairytale :*
    Last edited by Cattah; 03-06-2017, 01:57 PM. Reason: new thought

    Leave a comment:


  • Dephron
    replied
    well we had to move another guild since skyfall made their guild br up to 648m.theres no point to to be in our guild since we re only 60m guild br

    60m Guild against 648m Guild

    Leave a comment:

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