defences and hp useless

[R261816601]

wartune has raised skills damage too high and for do longer fights have added useless and annoying titans. not was better bring again all skills under -200% ? i'm an archer and i've tried to tanky with 1,4m pdef and 1,3m mdef vs a mage with 1,9m damage. i've received 10m damage. oneshoted. i've tried with my dragonchant. 1,9m pdef and 1,8mdef. oneshoted with 7m damage. opponent had about 1,9-2m matk and 1 thor with 930k br.

we do too damage and defs are fully useless. give more value to defs and hp and maybe we'll can see maybe also some players fully defensive. many players put titan -90% damage on 1st round for not be oneshoted and die in 3rd round with 1 hit anyway. if our defences worked as they should and with titans removed, we could fun to protect or destroy who was tankier in stead to lose 10 turns for kill who we can kill in 1-3 tunrs. this is very annoying. i can't oneshot anymore no one (is annoying for opponent this too , but if defence worked well , they could be super tanky but with attack too small. and allwe could fun.

[Kalaripayattu]

I agree with this fully. I, for one, am currently working on a full defense toon (full def on tattoos with half of my gems being def gems). I just prefer a tank build rather than an attack build (its far too common already). But now, I've been having doubts on whether or not defense (PDEF/MDEF) is working on PVP at all. Pretty sure it works on PVE (dungeons) as the effects are very noticeable, but its a different case for PVP. I have 1.4 million PDEF and an archer with 1.5 million attack (I used this specific situation as the value of my opponent's attack is very close to my pdef) once hit me for a full damage (almost 1.5 million as well). Got confused with that really granted that the damage is in sylph form (thor) and I only have somewhere like 12k fire resistance and 10k electro resistance, his un-sylph damage still hits me for half that value (around 600k to 800K crit and about 250k to 500k non-crit) - still pretty high and not something I was expecting given the value of my defense relative to his base damage. So, if anyone here can tell us, whether defense is still a viable stat or how it works, please do. Otherwise, I will work on investing all of my stats to intelligence for maximum damage, moving forward.

[miranda_psi]

Defense does work and it is very noticeable, but defense based players are highly unlikely to be able to win against an opponent of the same strength, because you end up sacrificing too much atk and you can't deal a decisive blow; it is possible to win with one, but it is much harder and as the match goes on your disadvantage gets bigger and bigger as the damage multipliers go up...

Kalaripayattu@
1.5m hit from a thor is low damage for a thor - consider yourself lucky.

250k to 500k non crit? from an archer? very, very reasonable. Their favourite skill is 400% damage... 1.5m atk to 1.4m def so roughly 100k base damage, so 400k damage, add in archer buffs makes it go up to 1.2m then you need to factor in res reduction and res, but 250k to 500k non-crit is very much reasonable based on their atk and your def (and I also think their's a minimum amount of damage atk does, regardless of how high your def is, though I don't know the specific mechanics).


R261816601@
7m damage from a thor? very reasonable. And you proved that defense matters - from 10m to 7m from ~500k of each def - that's a significant difference.

Against thors, you simply cannot let them hit you with a delph when you have no defensive buffs on - that applies to other sylphs as well, but much more so for thors because of their sheer power, but if you can block the thors delphs then you have the advantage since they have no defensive or regenerative ability like frigga and odin do, so it's a trade off like everything else.

[MrFancyPants]

A defense build is a big risk in PVP due in no small part to the fate skill that ignores up to 30% of your DEF stat in one out of every 5 attacks. And a significant number of players use spear of slumber which can take 10-30% (depending on level) off your DEF as well. Since those are % based, having a higher defense means a bigger reduction, so it probably puts you at a disadvantage vs. an ATK build, even if you get the same buffs.

Making defense more effective also means making fights more deterministic, if you eliminate the DEF-reducing factors, you don't get lucky hits, and it's just a matter of grinding your opponent down, which always favors the stronger player. Team play could be more interesting, but that's largely a dead area in this game now.

[kittyboomursin]

As an archer, I would go Survival if you're into PVP, the other has its use too but if you wish to survive.. that's the side you should go on.. I'm not sure what the difference here is and I've played Hunters elsewhere and they had the same set pretty much.. World of WarCraft that is..

[Kalaripayattu]

Thanks for the input, miranda_psi, MrFancyPants, and kittyboomursin. Now, I know what a former guildmate used to tell me, that this game (wartune) places heavy emphasis on damage dealing more than survival. I didn't pay much attention to it before as being a tank and surviving has always been my playstyle in every MMO i played, guess a tank build is not a viable one in here. I kinda understand the devs' decision, no one wants to be caught up in a battle lasting 15 minutes long or more, hence the damage multipliers (only now that I paid attention to that when I did arena earlier lol).

In any case, I switched half of my tattoos to damage (int) and balanced it out with def with these results:

[R261816601]

problem not is "normal" damage from thor, but that now have sense only dps build and only archer build. and players after say: ah, but archers are stronger and all want build as us archers. i wanted improve mine hp (test failed) and defences (test failed) . they are too few importants and s have told some players, we have too passives that damage who like be defensive.

ah, not is fully true that win always who is fully offensive. in fights very longs are very important defs and who is offensive receive too damage from who is very tanky and have attack very small. but unluckly this happens too few times because who have defs too high, receive too damage anyway. if we phad casher's attack to 1/10 of them attack , we could beat them easly because on this game count only attack... wartune should redraw codes on defs and expecially on hp. (chrisma is still useless and critic and block have a cap and not are a worth point many on them.

pratically: if i'd all stats on attack, i could win also vs heavy cashers because defs count too few.

[miranda_psi]

problem not is "normal" damage from thor, but that now have sense only dps build and only archer build. and players after say: ah, but archers are stronger and all want build as us archers. i wanted improve mine hp (test failed) and defences (test failed) . they are too few importants and s have told some players, we have too passives that damage who like be defensive.

ah, not is fully true that win always who is fully offensive. in fights very longs are very important defs and who is offensive receive too damage from who is very tanky and have attack very small. but unluckly this happens too few times because who have defs too high, receive too damage anyway. if we phad casher's attack to 1/10 of them attack , we could beat them easly because on this game count only attack... wartune should redraw codes on defs and expecially on hp. (chrisma is still useless and critic and block have a cap and not are a worth point many on them.

pratically: if i'd all stats on attack, i could win also vs heavy cashers because defs count too few.

Only archer build?
Far from it...

In 1v1 pvp, the class rankings are: knight > archer > mage
in 4v4 it is: archer > knight > mage


Only dps builds?
If that was the case, then why do the majority of people use Odin, not Thor?

"if we phad casher's attack to 1/10 of them attack , we could beat them easly"
Umm... yes, if you have 10x their atk, of course you are likely to win easily...

Charisma has nothing to do with HP and yes it is useless. It used to control the number of troops you could have, but even then it was worthless.

"block have a cap and not are a worth point"
Yes, there is a limit to how frequently you will block, and it has a counter stat in penetration. Please continue to think that block is useless - people like you who think that make it very easy to win fights.

Go ahead and sacrifice everything for atk - I guarantee you will lose. You need to balance you atk with def, hop and other stats to make yourself as strong as possible. You need def to reduce damage, you need enough hp to take the hits from the people you will be fighting. You need to find a good balance between all the stats - if you have a bad balance, then you can have a high br, but you will still be weak in battle. The good balance may give you a lower br (e.g. going full hp will give you a very high br, but you will lose to people much smaller than you), but you will ultimately be much stronger in battle.

[Kalaripayattu]

Only dps builds?
If that was the case, then why do the majority of people use Odin, not Thor?

I guess people go for Odin more because of the sylph having both defensive and offensive capabilities. Odin can heal, can reduce damage, deal decent damage, debuff (kinda something between Frigga and Thor).

Go ahead and sacrifice everything for atk - I guarantee you will lose. You need to balance you atk with def, hop and other stats to make yourself as strong as possible. You need def to reduce damage, you need enough hp to take the hits from the people you will be fighting. You need to find a good balance between all the stats - if you have a bad balance, then you can have a high br, but you will still be weak in battle. The good balance may give you a lower br (e.g. going full hp will give you a very high br, but you will lose to people much smaller than you), but you will ultimately be much stronger in battle.

That's actually the fun part, finding the right balance, which could be quite hard (at least for me) since I don't know the exact mechanics by which these stats are working as well as the cap value of stats like crit, block, penetration. There's just a lot of gray areas concerning stat formula, even astrals, I am not even sure if the percent ones work at all due to the randomness by which the effects are triggered, that is if it actually triggered.

Interestingly, I just found an old thread discussing stat formula, so I wonder if these concepts are true or not. http://forum.r2games.com/forum/brows...ing-hero-stats

[R261816601]

this link not show formula but only attributes how many stats give (i knew them) .

i've tested again and done some calcs and i CONFIRM that skills have value too high. if opponent has defs higher of my attack (2m attack) , i do on opponent 10% of my attack. (200k not critic.).
with critic i do 380k with critic and other bonuses. if i use thor i reach about 2,4m damage with MINIMUM damage without count intensity, tenacy , holy sword passive of thor, thor's passives for do more damage , goddess blessing , block and penetration and other bonuses from sylphs , eudaemons and willpowers

so, this 2,4 MILIONS damage as minimum is really a lot. wartune should put a value from each skill from 1% to 100% . now skills have value as 700% and maybe more.

now you not have surelly ideas for counter attack that i've told. this is a real big problem and this has destroyed expecially world boss. with best skill maxed to 100% , we could do still world boss long.

and i've told only minimum damage and this show real problem we have on wartune. a lot players like be tankier and all are passed when we was level 80 5 years ago about , from will destroyer (who not was an archer) to determination. and already here attack had shhowed big problems on skill value too bigs.

[MrFancyPants]

Only dps builds?
If that was the case, then why do the majority of people use Odin, not Thor?

I'd say two main reasons:
Thor is almost as dangerous to yourself as your opponents when you're a top player, due to reflect skills, and Thor's tendency towards massive overkill
Odin is by far the most effective in Time Portal (and Thor least, out of the 3 merged), so it's a wise investment to push your Odin to higher BR first

this link not show formula but only attributes how many stats give (i knew them) .

i've tested again and done some calcs and i CONFIRM that skills have value too high. if opponent has defs higher of my attack (2m attack) , i do on opponent 10% of my attack. (200k not critic.).
with critic i do 380k with critic and other bonuses. if i use thor i reach about 2,4m damage with MINIMUM damage without count intensity, tenacy , holy sword passive of thor, thor's passives for do more damage , goddess blessing , block and penetration and other bonuses from sylphs , eudaemons and willpowers

so, this 2,4 MILIONS damage as minimum is really a lot. wartune should put a value from each skill from 1% to 100% . now skills have value as 700% and maybe more.

now you not have surelly ideas for counter attack that i've told. this is a real big problem and this has destroyed expecially world boss. with best skill maxed to 100% , we could do still world boss long.

and i've told only minimum damage and this show real problem we have on wartune. a lot players like be tankier and all are passed when we was level 80 5 years ago about , from will destroyer (who not was an archer) to determination. and already here attack had shhowed big problems on skill value too bigs.

I'm not sure how you tested this to know the minimum damage from Thor, but if your base damage before sylph is only 200k, there are definitely other factors than which sylph you use to go up to 2.4M. Notably I would guess the combo MATK/PATK, the change in resistance, and the addition of the sylph's ATK stats to your own. Most of those factors are enhanced when your ATK is close to the target's (higher) DEF, too, so your test parameters look like they're bound to show the biggest possible difference.

Even if Thor (and KH skills) do have big multipliers, I'm not sure how it follows that they must be too high. Fully half the titan skills mitigate damage in some way, and card bonuses cut damage too. And probably the most important point: no one wants every fight in arena and BG to last 5+ minutes. High damage multipliers keep fights shorter, which I am all in favor of. High damage skills also increase the chances of a weaker player beating a stronger player sometimes, when luck puts multiple random factors together on the right skill. The alternative is longer fights where the outcome is almost guaranteed, and who wants that?

[demoniced]

i've tested again and done some calcs .. bla bla bla .. without count intensity, tenacy , holy sword passive of thor, thor's passives for do more damage , goddess blessing , block and penetration and other bonuses from sylphs , eudaemons and willpowers

... we could do still world boss long. ...

Rofl .. rofl.. rofl ..

due lag game is totally random .. calculation the ai cant even do as good as we so live with it .. random stays random ..

[miranda_psi]

I'd say two main reasons:
Thor is almost as dangerous to yourself as your opponents when you're a top player, due to reflect skills, and Thor's tendency towards massive overkill
Odin is by far the most effective in Time Portal (and Thor least, out of the 3 merged), so it's a wise investment to push your Odin to higher BR first

Reflect is so broken, it doesn't matter what you use - I've seen 100k damage reflect into over 10m. But yes, thor is more at risk from the legitimate reflects, which is why you have to choose the right skill to use - you only use the big skills when you need that level of damage. I'd day the main reason people use Odin is:
1) It's better overall for dealing damage to multiple targets
2) It has defensive and offensive capabilities and can recover
3) It's Holy Sword skill is very powerful: large heal and removing opponent buffs (can't be countered - countering thor's HS skill is easy)

Odin is the most effective? It certainly has the best combination of atk and recovery and so easily outperforms a frigia, however it's damage output is significantly lower than a thor and as such a thor can beat stages long before an ODIN can. Add in the passive heals on a thor and you can do more than an odin can... I am currently quite happily doing NM in time portal - no one I know using odins or friggas around the same size are there yet.

If you only have 1 merged sylph, the thor does need some luck to make the full runs, while the odin can do it deterministically, however since merges are relatively easy to get, you can easily build up an army of 3 of your choice of sylph which significantly reduces the risk from using a thor.

[wtfarmers]

I'm not surprised given the way ATK is defined nowadays. When you are in DC or merged sylph mode, your ATK is roughly typeless, against a lower DEF & RES, but your RES-RED still has full effect, your talents and skill passives are in effect, and your sylph skill multiplies on top of these. For your example, it perfectly proves HP is extremely useful, as you'd have survived the 7m or 10m hit and hit him back with your 7m or 10m thor delphic if you have more than that much HP left. I agree DEF is getting lesser useful nowadays though, since base DMG can't be any lower than 10% of ATK even if your DEF is higher than his ATK. A 10% ATK combined with a 700% skill is equivalent to a 70% ATK against zero DEF, which is still a significant number when we are talking in the multimillions. That's why I moved away from the tank build I originally had. I'm a knight. With no shield. So LOL