Dragonchant balancing

[Immilyn]

With the introduction of potency the dragonchanter subclass has become vastly overpowered due to two very unbalanced skills in particular: Soul Intervention potency and the debuff from having four specter talismans equipped.

Soul Intervention, with its awaken draining ability can effectively prevent an opponent from awakening indefinitely. Furthermore, while it reads "Character and a rival unit -150 awakening pt. each turn" the awaken drain procs anytime the wielder takes an action. This means for the first 10 rounds when titans are going off the awaken drain is triggered TWICE each turn making it even more overpowered.

The specter talisman debuff for having four talismans equipped reads "When dealing damage, 10% chance to disable enemy from receiving new beneficial buffs for 3 turns." The Shadow Ritual potency increases this up to a 25% proc rate. The issues making this particular ability even more overpowering than it appears on paper is two fold. First while the description reads while doing damage, it can proc as long as the user takes a turn. Using a heal rune, throwing up a holy seal, casting a shield, any of these can still cause the ability to proc. Secondly, while it stats the enemy cannot receive new beneficial buffs it extends beyond buffs to prevent the target from receiving anything beneficial at all, including things that should not be classified as buffs such as heal runes, heal titans, aoe heals from partners in arena. These are all instantaneous effects with no duration and therefore are not buffs.

These two abilities, especially the specter talisman debuff, can overcome 20m, 30m, and in some cases 50m+ BR differences between players. While I do agree the BR gap has grown quite large as of late I do feel that no single ability or skill should have this dramatic of an impact in battle. While it is my opinion that these two skills are in need of re-balancing, at the very least they should be fixed to do as their descriptions state.

[MemoryLane]

I will forward this as a bug on Monday, while everyone chimes in with their opinions on the subject.

[thor31]

having 4 specter talisman equipped on is not a problem and is part of the game players get to chose what talismans that they like seems like just complaining because they are losing to other players there are many factors that go in to who wins and who loses a battle and having a partner in arena is why they added the marriage option to the game the 4 specter talisman dose exactly what it says and dose not need to be messed with just because one might be complaining about loseing to another team in arena if losing to a team in arena then need to improve the toon and sylph that one is using

[GM_Equinox]

I do agree with thor31, in my opinion, the specter isn't overpowering at all. That effect can land on anyone including eudas and willpowers. As such, I have personally seen players who have this effect on and still get healed by partners in arena. The stun however seems to be more overpowering that the specters. The point of the effect is to prevent you receiving any benefit including heals. Is healing not a benefit, it sure is, otherwise you would be dead in these battles without this benefit.

[Seidr1]

the dragonchant potency is fine the way it is, no need to change, all skills work as they should. if you have problems, work on your talismans and potency

[Immilyn]

I do agree with thor31, in my opinion, the specter isn't overpowering at all. That effect can land on anyone including eudas and willpowers. As such, I have personally seen players who have this effect on and still get healed by partners in arena. The stun however seems to be more overpowering that the specters. The point of the effect is to prevent you receiving any benefit including heals. Is healing not a benefit, it sure is, otherwise you would be dead in these battles without this benefit.

The problem is the talisman's description does not read that it prevents any benefit, but that it prevents any "beneficial buff". An instantaneous heal is not a buff and therefore this should be considered a bug that needs to be fixed. Also as stated in my original post, the description also reads "when dealing damage" however the effect can trigger when any action is taken whether it is an attack that deals damage or any other action that does not deal damage. That makes two bugs that need to be rectified.

[GM_Equinox]

Any damage can trigger it, and that is how I have seen it so far. Whether it is the sylphs auto attacks, or if its the Eudas/WP or the players auto attack, it can cast. The heal may not be a bug it could be as intended and therefore the wording needs to be corrected. Knowing the devs that is probably the case. If you have a video indicating when this is going off and how you believe the skill should be working, I will certainly ask the devs to consider changes. Until then the skill is as it is, same as the stun relic hitting every shot.

[thor31]

The problem is the talisman's description does not read that it prevents any benefit, but that it prevents any "beneficial buff". An instantaneous heal is not a buff and therefore this should be considered a bug that needs to be fixed. Also as stated in my original post, the description also reads "when dealing damage" however the effect can trigger when any action is taken whether it is an attack that deals damage or any other action that does not deal damage. That makes two bugs that need to be rectified.

the instantaneous heal is not a bug the titan skill just road and pecan of life once triggers will heal or boost the heal the 4 specter talisman has nothing to do with heal and the beneficial buff you claim about heal would fall under the part of 10% chance to disable enemy from reciving new beneficial buff for 3 turns thus it keep one of the fighting player sylph or eudeamon therefor this is not a bug

[fubitz]

having 4 specter talisman equipped on is not a problem and is part of the game players get to chose what talismans that they like seems like just complaining because they are losing to other players there are many factors that go in to who wins and who loses a battle and having a partner in arena is why they added the marriage option to the game the 4 specter talisman dose exactly what it says and dose not need to be messed with just because one might be complaining about loseing to another team in arena if losing to a team in arena then need to improve the toon and sylph that one is using

This does nothing more than switch our game play to dragon mode. Do you think for two seconds some of the top players Don't have this stuff laying around? I actually commend you for pointing it out! Now we will all have that and max those little buggers in a matter of weeks. So while this has been fun for some lower players to catch the bigger players off guard... Yes probably by a 40-50M BR difference in some cases! I cant wait for a full battle of players locking things up until it times out! We will see how fun it is then..... Fuey

[fubitz]

This does nothing more than switch our game play to dragon mode. Do you think for two seconds some of the top players Don't have this stuff laying around? I actually commend you for pointing it out! Now we will all have that and max those little buggers in a matter of weeks. So while this has been fun for some lower players to catch the bigger players off guard... Yes probably by a 40-50M BR difference in some cases! I cant wait for a full battle of players locking things up until it times out! We will see how fun it is then..... Fuey

And Thor I'm with you on the fact that it does exactly what it says. I really like that. There are too many times in this game that tell you it does one thing but come to find out it "doesn't block for 3 turns" it blocks for one.as an example. Every NPC match in this game is full of those. Some sylph skills are broken. Many sylph expo specials skills lie. Ever read what the actual titans do? ya they don't do that. That is a whole different thread worthy of discussion.

[carnage2828]

I will try to clear up what Immilyn is saying, and I'll start by agreeing that is "should" be changed. I've used 4 set spectre even before they added the potency and at the 10% chance to apply, that was reasonable for what it did (disables enemy from receiving new beneficial buffs for 3 turns). What is unclear about this statement.... "is what the game considers a beneficial buff?"

Here is what the debuff will actually prevent from happening.
1. It will prevent any traditional buff that would normally apply to your character. (dmg buffs, def buffs, resist buffs) all of which are beneficial buffs.

2. It will prevent a good majority of your runes (brutality - a benefical buff, guardian - a benefical buff, purfication - a benefical buff?, heal rune - a beneficial buff?)

3. It will prevent any titan that buffs you, not going to list all of them (you already know which ones are definite buffs), however it will also prevent (Iron will - full sylph awakening, and Arcane power - arcane power is a buff even if you can't see it, just listing it because there are other beneficial buffs that don't show up on your character in battle also and yes 4 set spectre will prevent those as well).

4. It will prevent all sylph awakening skills (Frigga's awakening shield and the group purification component attached to it for anyone that has the 4 set spectre debuff currently on them, Thor's attack buff, and Odin's self heal)

5. It will prevent the obvious sylph buff skills (not going to list them, you know what they are), but it will also prevent both of Odin's heal skills "Helios' Blessing and Holy Vow", does "not" prevent Frigga's Heal skills.

6. It will prevent passive skills that heal you such as sylph passive skills that heal, knighthood defense spec knights passive heal and their passive sylph awakening skill.

7. It will prevent passive skills that give you a bonus that doesn't really show up as a buff such as knighthood knights fury spec passives rage and sylph awakening, knighthood archers shot spec passives rage and sylph awakening), knighthood mage arcane spec full sylph awakening skill. (not going to list the pre-knighthood skills, but if any work similar to these skills already listed, most likely 4 set spectre debuff will prevent them)

If the majority are willing to say all these skills that the 4 set spectre debuff prevents are "beneficial buffs" then sure it works as intended, but that's not the only issue. Potentially 25% applicaton rate from the new potencies and you can run into situations where someone would be effectively locked out of any of these skills from 3 - 6 turns or more. (If you don't think that's excessive then you really don't do much real pvp). You didn't get too many back to back applications or debuff renewals when it was 10% application (pre- potency).

Take a look at your cross server rankings and probably even your server rankings. Rough estimate you will probably see about 30% or more people already using this and it definitely will get higher. When that many people use something, that tends to mean its unbalanced. There are always people who are late these unbalances so you can easily expect that this number will grow to somewhere between 50-60% if not more (personally if not changed I think it will be more). People will come to the conclusion the only way to fight it is to use it themselves.

It's an exaggeration that it will help you kill someone 30-50 mil BR higher than you in a 1v1 scenario (even in aries with the 200% buff that is a bit of a stretch). However it's entirely possible for someone to damage themself from reflect and not be able to recover because of the 4 set spectre debuff and you just happen to finish them off (That is pure luck and not what i'm talking about here). If you could not previously beat people 2 - 10 mil above your BR and now you all of sudden can with 4 set spectre, then there is something unbalanced about it. NOOOOO you didn't all of sudden just get better. Just as a reminder I use this set up and yes it does allow me to kill people higher than me with much more consistency.

Yes, I realize this post may get other people to use it, but maybe when 70% of people are using it they will perhaps change it because it should be changed. I've had conversations with people about it when potency was just introduced and we knew it would be this way. So if all those skills above are actually considered "beneficial buffs" then it should be changed. My proposed fix, just reduce the duration to 2 turns, that way it's a much lower chance to run into the scenario where someone is continuously locked out of those skills for 5 or more turns (yes it happens).

[carnage2828]

Just a side note* I fully understand that people tend to only complain about their own issues (maybe Immilyn got killed by someone 20mil BR lower). It's not impossible to beat someone with 4 set spectre (somewhat close in BR, the odds are definitely not in your favor), I've surely been killed when I've misplayed or simply been outplayed. I consider myself an above average pvper cause i notice the smaller details that people overlook. For example I watch very closely what buffs are currently active on my opponent, I'm not going to sling delphics into your guardian rune or your titan 90% def.

The tell tale sign that something is unbalanced is the amount of people that will eventually use it. If you haven't noticed yet, you will eventually notice that there are much more people using this set vs. anything else. I don't have Immilyn's issue, I completely maul people lol. Other people who consider themself above average know it's unbalanced (that's absolutely the reason they use it) and if you don't then I will without remorse say - maybe you're actually not that good.

[Immilyn]

It's an exaggeration that it will help you kill someone 30-50 mil BR higher than you in a 1v1 scenario (even in aries with the 200% buff that is a bit of a stretch).

Just a side note* I fully understand that people tend to only complain about their own issues (maybe Immilyn got killed by someone 20mil BR lower).

Just to clarify where my number estimates came from, it was actually a guild mate of mine that killed someone approximately 65m BR higher than himself in Ares War because of the specter talisman buff lock. That specific example is what prompted me to start this thread as a single skill overcoming that much of a BR gap seemed far too excessive to me. Thank you for the much more detailed information that you added to flesh things out and thank you for your support. It's nice to see someone else that is heavily into the pvp aspect of the game to come forward as well.

[Immilyn]

the instantaneous heal is not a bug the titan skill just road and pecan of life once triggers will heal or boost the heal the 4 specter talisman has nothing to do with heal and the beneficial buff you claim about heal would fall under the part of 10% chance to disable enemy from reciving new beneficial buff for 3 turns thus it keep one of the fighting player sylph or eudeamon therefor this is not a bug

thor31, I FULLY agree that the Just Road titan skill is a buff since it has a duration and can be dispelled. That is not one of the titans I'm questioning. The Paean of Life titan skill on the other hand has no duration and cannot be undone/dispelled by a time titan, purge rune, odin holy sword awakening skill, death lingerer dragon chant skill, etc. All of these affect buffs and have no effect on Paean of Life, hence my argument that the specter talisman should not impact it as well. The same argument can be made for a heal rune.

[thor31]

thor31, I FULLY agree that the Just Road titan skill is a buff since it has a duration and can be dispelled. That is not one of the titans I'm questioning. The Paean of Life titan skill on the other hand has no duration and cannot be undone/dispelled by a time titan, purge rune, odin holy sword awakening skill, death lingerer dragon chant skill, etc. All of these affect buffs and have no effect on Paean of Life, hence my argument that the specter talisman should not impact it as well. The same argument can be made for a heal rune.

those are also impacted as they also provide a beneficial benefit buff to the player willpower or eud on the other team that your fighting