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Theorycrafting: Surviving the 6th attack

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  • WickedSilk
    started a topic Theorycrafting: Surviving the 6th attack

    Theorycrafting: Surviving the 6th attack

    I haven't found a similar topic, so here.

    I guess that a lot of people have at some point wondered if it would be possible to survive 6 attacks by the boss. I haven't seen anyone succeeding yet, but with better builds and/or a bit of luck, this could be possible. Here I would like to present a theory, without a lot of numbercrunching, about how it could be done.

    First I'd like to examine the damage the boss deals. It ranges between 2 million for very low levels to 400k for relatively high (I believe it goes even further down). What this goes to prove is that the increase of ~5k DEF stats lowers the damage significantly, meaning boss might not have incredibly high PATK values for that attack, but it is simply an attack that deals 20000% PATK (this is a rough estimate). And as such, with a high enough DEF it could be reduced significantly. However, this poses another problem, as an ATK rule states that the minimum ATK with which you participate in an attack is 10% of your total ATK. This would mean that the boss would still deal 200*0.1*(his ATK) damage (which is 20*ATK). So, the player must be able to survive 20 attacks from the boss even if he manages to get a DEF higher than the boss' PATK.

    Secondly, I'd like to examine the defenses the players have. Among those which are surely going to be used are block, illusion and goddess blessing astrals and defense stats. Assuming that the boss deals physical damage, the best choice of the class would be a knight. I do not have sufficient data to make a table from which I could deduce the exact PDEF needed to make it. If my info is correct, all DEF after a point is superfluous - since the boss will always deal 10% of his base PATK, it is only necessary to reach 0.8*(boss PATK) in DEF (As skills use (PATK-PDEF)/2). It is possible that this value of DEF is unreachable. However, if I'm right, the PATK value is around 22k (so players would need at least 14k base DEF (+50% vouchers) to be sure). This requires further testing and is the most problematic part of this defense.
    With a block build (astral, some block in refines, possibly replacing PATK gems with block for the purpose of the experiment) that damage would almost definitely be halved, as it seems to be easy to block. The goddess blessing astral could reduce the damage by another 20% and the illusion could give it 10% chance to dodge. To eliminate chance a bit, as the illusion astral is kind of hard to count in (it alone could be used to survive this attack on lvl 1, even though the chance is extremely low), I'll calculate it both as ineffective and dodging one attack. In the first case the damage is reduced by 0% and in the second case by 25%.

    Finally, I'd like to connect these figures and calculate whether it would be possible to survive this. If the boss has 20k PATK and the player somehow manages to get 16k PDEF (80% of that ATK), the attack would deal:

    Illusion triggers once:
    3*SKILL*(PATK-PDEF)/2/BLOCK/BLESSING = 3*200*(20k-16k)/2/2*0.8 = 250000 damage

    Illusion doesn't trigger:
    4*SKILL*(PATK-PDEF)/2/BLOCK/BLESSING = 4*200*(20k-16k)/2/2*0.8 = 333333 damage

    Assuming lvl 10 goddess blessing and max block values, but no Illusion:
    4*200*(20k-16k)/2*0.3*0.7 = 168000 damage

    Same, with Illusion triggering once:
    3*20*(0.1*PATK)/2*0.3*0.7 = 126000 damage


    So, players would have to have at least that much health. In the first case every hit deals 83k damage, and in the second case 42k.

    Now, I know that it's possible to get all of this simply with Illusion triggering 4 times. Let me just calculate the probability of that happening:

    (lvl of astral - chance)
    5 - 0.01% (every 10000 boss fights =~1 year)
    6 - 0.0201% (every 5000 boss fights =~6 months)
    7 - 0.0384% (every 2600 boss fights =~3 months)
    10 - 0.16% (every 625 boss fights =~17 days)

    Looks like it won't happen anytime soon, but if we take the number of players using it into account, it will happen sooner or later.

    I'd like to hear your ideas to check if this is anywhere even near the number needed.

    Of course, first I'd like to make sure if I got all my facts right, so here they are:

    1. Nobody ever did this.
    2. Boss deals approximately 200x more damage on the last attack than on regular attacks (per attack).
    3. The damage dealt formula is (ATK-DEF)/2 and this damage is used in skills.
    4. Higher block increases the amount blocked, up to the maximum of 70%.
    5. Illusion can still dodge bosses.
    6. The minimum boss damage dealt per hit does not exist and he relies on the formula used for players (since I've seen that damage being reduced significantly, I believe this is satisfied, but still not sure).

    Oh, and that thing about numbercrunching, I lied.

    EDIT:
    I forgot to mention what I didn't include:
    Talent damage reduction.
    Defensive skill bonuses, such as the agoran shield or mage's damage reduction on heal.
    I might've forgotten other stuff.

    TL, DR: It could be possible to survive with extremely buffed (lvl 10) astrals and 170k HP, or a bit weaker (lvl 7) astrals and 350k HP. The best (cheapest) chance, however, have those who use Illusion 10.
    Last edited by WickedSilk; 04-05-2013, 11:49 AM. Reason: added the things i forgot to put in originally

  • CondorHero
    replied
    Prior to patch 1.5, I've illusioned the world boss' 6th attack once.

    It will continue as per normal until the 12th attack when it will hit for the same huge amount of damage.

    Leave a comment:


  • WickedSilk
    replied
    @katukk - 0.038% = ~4 in 10000, but you're right, it should happen a few times per server

    @bladewarior - I've calculated most of this stuff in, but I don't know how high talents can go and I miss a few details about knights. I'll try calculating it for these things too.

    @Daehawk - So it's 1 in 45 attacks (if you tank the boss?) - that's a bit unlucky according to my numbers, as the average should be a bit higher, but it's reasonable, I guess.

    @bakuryuuha - This is another interesting theory. It does conflict with a lot of things others say, but it's strangely probable and makes sense.

    Of course, to decide what's right I'd just need to do it myself. Which will take some time, but heh, not like I have something else to do

    Leave a comment:


  • bakuryuuha
    replied
    Didn't work for me when I dodged all 4 hits with illusion. I still died despite taking 4 dmg and I had full health on my hero.

    Leave a comment:


  • Daehawk
    replied
    Originally posted by WickedSilk View Post
    @Daehawk - I see. But if they just nerfed it to what it says (if I understood right), then my values from the original post stand (as you can see, you can expect to get the total dodge once every few months for good astrals). The chance to trigger a lvl 5 3 times out of 4 is ~0.4% so it could happen every 250 boss fights (about once a week). If it happened way more than that, they were right to nerf it.
    With a level 6 Illusion after nerf you're lucky to see Illusion proc off of 1 attack every 5 battles. Let alone get multiple procs in the same fight.

    Leave a comment:


  • bladewarior
    replied
    hmmm i wonder if its possible as a knight to survive it going full % dmg reduce thinking of lvl 10 astral 30% dmg reduce 12-13% from talent 7% from skill then with proc from talent another 12-13% and 20% from agoran shield making it if everything coms together 82% ish on top of that get high block and high hp hmmmmmmm....... dreaming....

    Leave a comment:


  • kattuktk
    replied
    Originally posted by R2_D2droid View Post
    A friend of a friend said they survived the 6th attack with illusion. I have no way of confirming this at all. He says the attack order resets as if he had just started the fight.
    I think after one ult the attack order does not reset but the boss keeps on ulting you.... one of my friends who has an illusion at 14% and survived told me.... actually about 4-5 people in my server have survived the ult coz of illusion and it aint that hard(about 3 in 1000) with a level 7 illusion so a lot of players must have survived it considering the quantity of people who play the game...

    Leave a comment:


  • WickedSilk
    replied
    @Daehawk - I see. But if they just nerfed it to what it says (if I understood right), then my values from the original post stand (as you can see, you can expect to get the total dodge once every few months for good astrals). The chance to trigger a lvl 5 3 times out of 4 is ~0.4% so it could happen every 250 boss fights (about once a week). If it happened way more than that, they were right to nerf it.


    @Xhiah - Of course, right now. Levelup to 60+ and it'll deal way less damage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Xhiah
    replied
    need 5m hp to live :P

    Leave a comment:


  • Daehawk
    replied
    Originally posted by WickedSilk View Post

    @bladewarior & @SinnedWill - dodge nerf? illusion nerf? what happened? I can't remember, but my illusion astral is still 2% per level (i don't use it very often so that's probably why I forgot). If it's a block astral problem (not illusion) as far as i know max damage blocked was 70% but it was still impossible, even with that.
    Illusion used to proc a lot more, they nerfed it down to around what the % actually is we believe. So thus it's a lot harder to get it trigger multiple times off of the same attack. I know before the nerf I could get it at level 5 to trigger 3 of the 4 WB Ultimates.

    Leave a comment:


  • WickedSilk
    replied
    Thanks for the responses!

    @stumpy - that does make sense and agrees with my previous findings, I only wonder how much damage per hit did he deal?

    @R2D2 - a friend of mine says she survived 3 hits, but if what you say is true, it's an interesting turn

    @bladewarior & @SinnedWill - dodge nerf? illusion nerf? what happened? I can't remember, but my illusion astral is still 2% per level (i don't use it very often so that's probably why I forgot). If it's a block astral problem (not illusion) as far as i know max damage blocked was 70% but it was still impossible, even with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • SinnedWill
    replied
    before the dodge nerf, yes it was possible. did it once or twice with a level 4 illusion astral, but never again even when my illusion was lv. 6. first time it happened, i thought i broke the game.

    Leave a comment:


  • bladewarior
    replied
    before the lowering of dodge astral it happend few times but now i dont know if it would

    Leave a comment:


  • D2droid
    replied
    A friend of a friend said they survived the 6th attack with illusion. I have no way of confirming this at all. He says the attack order resets as if he had just started the fight.

    Leave a comment:


  • stumpylt
    replied
    Iv got 24k pdef with buff and 3k block, and Iv blocked the last hit and die, hp was 114k
    Hope this helps

    Leave a comment:

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