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The fundamental flaw in assuming that everyone gains if you steal from your friends.

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  • CondorHero
    replied
    Originally posted by R27176943 View Post
    The best thing is that the stealers get removed first, not those non-stealers. And if I remember, it was one stealer that started a whining thread first how other "are selfish" and remove him. The following threads was about stealers trying to convince others about how good is get their seeds stolen. And when someone does the math and prove their wrong, stealers start calling them selfish and get mad. If those kind of people don't see the evidence and don't understand, then because of their stupidity/intelligence they get removed from the list. And that's why they whine. Period.
    I provided 2 proof here.
    The first is an amateur "proof" (which, in all technical sense, isn't a rigorous proof). It is a "proof" by construction. See post #1.
    The second is a sketch of a rigorous mathematical proof (the kind that can get accepted in internationally-refereed journal in the academic world). See post #52.

    Both of my proofs are indisputable. I challenge people to show my proofs as wrong or provide a counter-example that stealing benefits everyone.
    No one came up.

    But online forums are online forums. People like to say what they want, in the face of overwhelming evidence. So there you go.

    Leave a comment:


  • R27176943
    replied
    The best thing is that the stealers get removed first, not those non-stealers. And if I remember, it was one stealer that started a whining thread first how other "are selfish" and remove him. The following threads was about stealers trying to convince others about how good is get their seeds stolen. And when someone does the math and prove their wrong, stealers start calling them selfish and get mad. If those kind of people don't see the evidence and don't understand, then because of their stupidity/intelligence they get removed from the list. And that's why they whine. Period.

    Leave a comment:


  • R28901959
    replied
    Originally posted by CondorHero View Post
    Let me report this post.
    Do it wow im so scare ? Who u think u r really ? Boss in here? u make me laugh
    Last edited by R28901959; 04-15-2013, 12:56 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • CondorHero
    replied
    Originally posted by R28901959 View Post
    U are the one barking all over forum with your sh-t words really. Nth to do in real life? Just camping in front of your computer and talk craps? This forum is freedom of speech and i post where i want to.
    Let me report this post.

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  • R28901959
    replied
    Originally posted by CondorHero View Post
    Take your greedy rage post out and go back to your own thread to rage about people removing you.
    U are the one barking all over forum with your sh-t words really. Nth to do in real life? Just camping in front of your computer and talk craps? This forum is freedom of speech and i post where i want to.

    Leave a comment:


  • CondorHero
    replied
    Originally posted by R28901959 View Post
    None of my friends never got mad with me when i steal their crops and then someone steal mine too Should i get mad? No i dont really need to bother for some lost crops . For those selfish kinds better get the ** out and stop all the **** from your mouth.Not happy? Send ticket to R2 and tell them to remove the stealing system then can u do that? U want to delete just do it im so happy to delete u too . So many friend waiting to add too . Not only u in the world
    Take your greedy rage post out and go back to your own thread to rage about people removing you.

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  • R28901959
    replied
    None of my friends never got mad with me when i steal their crops and then someone steal mine too Should i get mad? No i dont really need to bother for some lost crops . For those selfish kinds better get the ** out and stop all the **** from your mouth.Not happy? Send ticket to R2 and tell them to remove the stealing system then can u do that? U want to delete just do it im so happy to delete u too . So many friend waiting to add too . Not only u in the world

    Leave a comment:


  • KnowingEyes7
    replied
    Originally posted by R2991253 View Post
    we're talking about a mass alt farming here, u dont have an alt or two, well thats ur loss.. coz many of us already have our own, for plundering purpose etc.. so, the point is, make a way for u and ur friends + alts so that we can get the mount faster.. ur mainchar can get the mount, alts? well, that what alts r for.. lol.. sacrifice emself for mainchar thx
    What server are you on and what is your character name?

    Leave a comment:


  • CondorHero
    replied
    Originally posted by R2991253 View Post
    this is mad brah.. everyone assuming that everyone on their list is an active player, well ur math works, in fact try to understand how the game works, its never a zero-sum.. if ur crops get stolen 3 times, u got less that that x-3 number.. so?

    but still i agree with unified serenity there, considering there is no way all those on ur friend list r active.. some might get their mount faster, some didnt even bother to try.. lol.. but again, we're talking about a mass alt farming here, u dont have an alt or two, well thats ur loss.. coz many of us already have our own, for plundering purpose etc.. so, the point is, make a way for u and ur friends + alts so that we can get the mount faster.. ur mainchar can get the mount, alts? well, that what alts r for.. lol.. sacrifice emself for mainchar

    u dont like having ur crops stolen? del ur friends, blacklist, or talk to them nicely, im sure they will understand..
    everyone have their own opinion anyway.. thx
    Right. If everyone is an active player, that is a zero-sum game.
    If you find an inactive player (i.e he is less active than you), and you spend all day camping, then you benefit.

    This does not change the conclusion that stealing benefits you and you alone.

    Leave a comment:


  • R2991253
    replied
    this is mad brah.. everyone assuming that everyone on their list is an active player, well ur math works, in fact try to understand how the game works, its never a zero-sum.. if ur crops get stolen 3 times, u got less that that x-3 number.. so?

    but still i agree with unified serenity there, considering there is no way all those on ur friend list r active.. some might get their mount faster, some didnt even bother to try.. lol.. but again, we're talking about a mass alt farming here, u dont have an alt or two, well thats ur loss.. coz many of us already have our own, for plundering purpose etc.. so, the point is, make a way for u and ur friends + alts so that we can get the mount faster.. ur mainchar can get the mount, alts? well, that what alts r for.. lol.. sacrifice emself for mainchar

    u dont like having ur crops stolen? del ur friends, blacklist, or talk to them nicely, im sure they will understand..
    everyone have their own opinion anyway.. thx

    Leave a comment:


  • CondorHero
    replied
    Originally posted by Unified_Serenity View Post
    I have worked it out... 200 friends planting 2000 seeds, each max at 200 picks and you get yours plus 200, so you all come out ahead than if you only picked your seeds, but enjoy your day and your 140 ancient spirit.
    Your math is wrong because you focused on yourself only.
    But I think with Shadowscared's example, you should understand.

    If you don't understand, I think we don't have to explain further.
    Last edited by CondorHero; 04-14-2013, 08:53 AM.

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  • Unified_Serenity
    replied
    I have worked it out... 200 friends planting 2000 seeds, each max at 200 picks and you get yours plus 200, so you all come out ahead than if you only picked your seeds, but enjoy your day and your 140 ancient spirit.

    Leave a comment:


  • CondorHero
    replied
    Originally posted by Unified_Serenity View Post
    Ok, let's take it out to max friends of 200. You can all only take 200 even if you have opportunity for more. So, if all your friends let each other steal, and you all max out, then there is more than enough to go around. But again, you don't want to do it, you want others to not do it, and therefore the rub in the game. Solution, delete friends. Don't steal and take weeks longer to reach your maximum in the game. good luck.
    Nothing to do with deleting friends.

    Your claim that "everyone benefits if everyone steals" is wrong. So is your example.
    It has been pointed out by 2 others that your example focused on yourself, but not others.

    Work it out again considering every player's perspective. You will see where a mistake was made in the computation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shadowscarred
    replied
    Draw a diagram. Somewhere, somehow, it's wrong.
    Perhaps it's because only three people can take from a farm. Perhaps it's the apparently validity of the math.
    Let's see..

    21 people, all friends with each other, and I'll assume that 10 crops are planted at a time, instead of 9.

    Player 1 steals 10 from every player once.
    Player 2 steals 10 from every player once.
    Player 3 steals 10 from every player once.
    Player 4 steals 10 from the first three players once.
    The other 17 players can't steal, since everyone has been stolen from 3 times.

    So, the first three players get +170 each day (+200, -30), the fourth breaks even (+30, -30), but the other 17 players lose 30.
    510 (170*3) + 0 + -510 (17*-30) = 0.

    So far, nothing was gained. Maybe things will look different after 12 hours.

    The same 21 players plant another 10 plants.
    Players 1, 2 & 3 cannot steal.
    Player 4 steals 10 from 17 players once. (1-18, excluding 4 - Player 4 already stole three times 12 hours before)
    Player 5 steals 10 from every player once.
    Player 6 steals 10 from every player once.
    Player 7 steals 10 from players 4, 19, 20 & 21 once. (The others were already stolen from 3 times)
    The other 14 players can't steal.

    The total number gained/lost:
    Player 4: +140
    Player 5: +170
    Player 6: +170
    Player 7: + 30
    Players 1-3 & 8-21 also lost 30.
    170+170+140+30-(17*30)= 0.
    Again, it breaks even.

    The grand total: 6*200 + 60 - (60*21) = 0.

    It's zero-sum, however you look at it.Those 17 are losing out, and even player 7 gets nothing extra (seem familiar? The same pattern as in the original diagram).
    Even if you alternate, and let players seven, eight and nine harvest 200 times the next time, the eventual outcome is the same as if you stole nothing.
    Similarly, stealing only a portion leads to the same outcome.
    The conclusion? The entire process involves distribution. Nothing is gained, or lost (technically), and in the end there is just as much as you started with, but in different places.
    What nobody considers is that the other 17 players can't steal. If they can't steal, they don't gain. If they don't gain, they're not getting that mount any faster.

    As for those "missing" spirits, the thief takes a fraction of a spirit (0.5 if the plant yields 15), so the other thefts complete the fraction.
    The farm owner loses nothing more than he should, though the thieves each hold only a fraction of a spirit each (above whatever they took), which is where the missing seed goes:
    15 = 100%
    1.5 = 10%
    100%-10% = 15-1.5 = 13.5
    Player gets 14, thief gets 1.

    13.5 = 90%
    1.5 = 10%
    90%-10% = 13.5-1.5 = 12
    Player gets 12, thief gets 1.

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  • WickedSilk
    replied
    Okay, so let's say the default crops for everyone is 14x10. 200 people, 200 steals. Let's say that you have to steal 1 seed from everyone. That means that everyone has to steal 1 seed from you, too. You have 140 seeds.

    Leave a comment:

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