Have mages been made too OP ?

[kattuktk]

Still way better than what Archer got... (rant time)

Disreguarding Multi-Shot cost 0 once you have 10 Rage + skill.

Lunatic cost 45 Rage
Bloodthirsty cost 25 Rage
Deep Freeze cost 35 Rage

our main Rage gain is from crits (and we do not crit all the time unless you're a Casher with deck out gear + astral)

Arrow Strike gives 5 base rage, 10 if crit.
Multi-shot gives 0 rage, but cost 0 once you have 10 Rage up.

This is usually what happens if you have a starting 30 rage.

Multi-shot - 30 rage, arrow strike (if crit) - 40 rage, arrow strike (if crit) - 50 rage, uses Archer's main AoE, now left with 5 rage.

If none of those AoE crits (if target have high -crit % or you have low crit %, you needs at least 4 Arrow Strike (all crits) before you can do another AoE (that's 4 turns with only Arrow Strike and not using other skills, by these time, if your target is not dead, your dead)
Not to mention most people uses Multi-shot if they get 10 rage after using AoE to try and finish off opposing Troops.



Mage on the other hand... can actually decimate opposing's Troops in less than 4 rounds (2 if both AoE crits)
Than you can just use Heal and slowly kill off the opposing character.
Since if opposing is a Knight and your Troops usually gets hit first, so the Knight will target your Troops instead of you 75% of the times, this gives you a lot of time to deal damage on the Knight (who is usually low in mdef)
If opposing is an Archer and doesn't have the Rage to use AoE, you usually can finish them off easily like Knights.


Overall... the most important factor is the Troops, where Mages can kill them faster than the other classes.

Dont need a crit build mage my friend... any level troop is a 2 HITKO guarantee if a mage has EWD at 40% or 45%

[ElusionM]

Anyone who thinks Mages are OP... Simply don't know how to play.

Both Archers and Knights can avoid hitting troops and use opponents troops to their advantage, Mages cannot.
Mages need healing otherwise they become a useless character with no pvp ability at all.

[kattuktk]

Anyone who thinks Mages are OP... Simply don't know how to play.

Both Archers and Knights can avoid hitting troops and use opponents troops to their advantage, Mages cannot.
Mages need healing otherwise they become a useless character with no pvp ability at all.

Use opponents troop to their advantage?? hmm i really hope you are not referring to the utter nonsense "method" of holy seal, ulti slash and ww combo as that "method" is a WASTE!!.. can u please explain how the knights can ONLY hit mages and use the **** troops to their advantage??( if your referring to the templars triggering block heal then im sorry to say this man.... but please play a knight and then comment).
Plus theres a reason why other games have different classes for aoe and heals... there's a reason my friend..

[ElusionM]

Use opponents troop to their advantage?? hmm i really hope you are not referring to the utter nonsense "method" of holy seal, ulti slash and ww combo as that "method" is a WASTE!!.. can u please explain how the knights can ONLY hit mages and use the **** troops to their advantage??( if your referring to the templars triggering block heal then im sorry to say this man.... but please play a knight and then comment).
Plus theres a reason why other games have different classes for aoe and heals... there's a reason my friend..

That's exactly what I'm talking about, now with the new rune system, it's even easier for knights to destroy mages.
Don't use WW so early, use it later and yes triggering block... take 1k damage, heal 3k.. Is it my problem you lack HP or block?

Archers can use Armor Piercer to kill the mage, then use a Bloodthirsty on the troops.

Killing a mages troops only hurts you.
1. You take longer to break through and hit mage.
2. You stop taking extra heals from troops.

So smarten up Stop whining

[kattuktk]

That's exactly what I'm talking about, now with the new rune system, it's even easier for knights to destroy mages.
Don't use WW so early, use it later and yes triggering block... take 1k damage, heal 3k.. Is it my problem you lack HP or block?

Archers can use Armor Piercer to kill the mage, then use a Bloodthirsty on the troops.

Killing a mages troops only hurts you.
1. You take longer to break through and hit mage.
2. You stop taking extra heals from troops.

So smarten up Stop whining

Wow just one AP can kill the mage?? dude dont forget mages' hat gives the same PDEF..plus u cant use AP over and over again.. eventually your hits will be taken by their troops and they can just fully restore at any point by using restoration.
For knights the ONLY way to kill mage fast is to get through their troops fast.... if any knight disagrees then i bet he has never played against a 60 leg mage.. using holy seal, ulti slash would hit mage yes.. but as soon as you use WW you will start hitting the troops... for mages it doesnt matter man coz they can just spam aoe's while you are trying out your utter nonsense method of holy seal and when you start hitting the troops they can just restore them back again...
If their troops are alive then most likely as a knight you will be hitting their troops... that block trigger wont matter much when you are getting **** constantly by the fire breathing demon hiding behind the troops...
Runes have **** knights more than any patch ever did(1.5 is a close contender coz of templar addition).. we get all the same runes as mages... but THEY GET GUARDIAN RUNE.... and we get PURI AND PUGE rune.. both of these runes just plain *** suck and serve no purpose... while a guardian rune give mage extra damage reduction.... moreover with just two rune slots u cant carry purge rune to try and dispel the -15% dmg buff or sunt... as u need brutality rune to kill mages at 50% timer and u need heal rune as its the best rune which a knight gets.

[horick]

get more mdef and patk and block if you want to beat mages.. alot of the top mages lack pdef and stackup on mdef

[FarrelBrown]

U talking about BG my friend?? mages are the MOST OP CLASS IN BG NO MATTER WHAT!!
I bet you have never played a knight in your entire life dude.. if a knight is taking 4 rounds to kill the mages' troops(they take much longer with 70+ troops) then that knight is TOAST, ABSOLUTELY TOAST! in 4 rounds mages can get knight's HP to atleast 40% or something... u talking about DD? as soon as i select DD mages select restore and they restore a huge chunk of their hp back and gain 15% dmg reduction buff...they can just spam LB after that and when they are close to dying can get a BL in.... restoring their HP again(plus the LB is hurting the knight A LOT) . Lets face it.. with the PvE set mages gain 16 rage every second which is a good rate of generation.....
If u had played knight then you would have known that killing 1450 troop count level 70 templars is not a small deal... mages toast both archers and knights while they are like dumbasses trying to clear the troops.
In cross server arena.. if theres a PvE mage on the other side then you are completely ******.. they can hit really hard with their AoE's and then with just one BL can restore their team back on again to full health... tell me thats not OP my friend..
The mages are not as squishy as they are in most other games.... take everquest's wizard for instance.. he has cloth armor but deals HUGE damage.... cleric has great heals.... but in wartune its like both of these classes combined into one.... i never thought that a mage hat would give the same PDEF as a knights steel helmet... mages r too much OP... just too much OP.

You are correct I haven't played a knight (Have you played a mage to level 65-70?) but I DO fight knights on a fairly consistent basis both in BGs and 3v3. I also have the pleasure of being in a guild with more than a few VERY good knights. There is a very specific reason why I used the 65k+ BR factor in my description btw so stop talking to me about how a mage can put an equal BR knight at 40% HP within 4 rounds because it's NOT true at that BR range UNLESS they have EWD at level 8 or 9+ which currently very few mages in the Eastern Timezone servers have right now. And where exactly are you getting 16 rage a second for mages? Let me break it down. Bolt=18 rage with PvE, RoF is 6 rage gained IF you are hitting 3 targets, Meteor 8 rage lost IF 3 targets more if less than 3. Whether you want to believe it or not there is actually some thought that needs to be put into rotation as a mage AND heals have what we like to call COOLDOWNS, 15 seconds on Resto, 60 seconds on BL without Talent.
Now when I used the "WITHOUT BL" description of a fight between a knight and a mage at 65k+ BR was there anything ELSE you didn't understand or have I finally made my point as to why heals are necessary for mages to survive in PvP at near end-game levels?

[ElusionM]

Wow just one AP can kill the mage?? dude dont forget mages' hat gives the same PDEF..plus u cant use AP over and over again.. eventually your hits will be taken by their troops and they can just fully restore at any point by using restoration.
For knights the ONLY way to kill mage fast is to get through their troops fast.... if any knight disagrees then i bet he has never played against a 60 leg mage.. using holy seal, ulti slash would hit mage yes.. but as soon as you use WW you will start hitting the troops... for mages it doesnt matter man coz they can just spam aoe's while you are trying out your utter nonsense method of holy seal and when you start hitting the troops they can just restore them back again...
If their troops are alive then most likely as a knight you will be hitting their troops... that block trigger wont matter much when you are getting **** constantly by the fire breathing demon hiding behind the troops...
Runes have **** knights more than any patch ever did(1.5 is a close contender coz of templar addition).. we get all the same runes as mages... but THEY GET GUARDIAN RUNE.... and we get PURI AND PUGE rune.. both of these runes just plain *** suck and serve no purpose... while a guardian rune give mage extra damage reduction.... moreover with just two rune slots u cant carry purge rune to try and dispel the -15% dmg buff or sunt... as u need brutality rune to kill mages at 50% timer and u need heal rune as its the best rune which a knight gets.

*sigh*
Turn 1: Holy Seal
Turn 2: Ult Slash
Turn 3: Rune, Brutality perhaps?
Turn 4: Ult Slash
Turn 5: Agoran Shield perhaps?
Turn 6:Ult Slash
Turn 7: Whirlwind
Turn 8: Ult Slash

Dunno if that works out rage wise, if not can cut the Agoran round an replace it with Whirlwind round.. But quite easily you can pound on the Mage over and over, for up to 8 rounds?

I have 10k Pdef, Archers of my level and BR have 20k Attack, They crit me for 20k with AP. so 2 or 3x AP, I'm done for... If Archer has 100 rage (BG) Then I am screwed.
Armor Piercer has no cooldown, just a cost of 35 rage.

It appears to me you've tried the above but used Whirlwind too early and mage healed himself and attacks then went to troops.

[kattuktk]

Oh yes you are right I have NEVER fought a knight (That was sarcasm in case you couldn't tell) I actually fight knights on a fairly consistent basis. There is a very specific reason why I used the 65k+ BR factor in my description btw so stop talking to me about how a mage can put an equal BR knight at 40% HP within 4 rounds because it's NOT true at that BR range UNLESS they have EWD at level 8+ which currently very few mages in the Eastern Timezone servers have right now. And where exactly are you getting 16 rage a second for mages? Let me break it down. Bolt=18 rage with PvE, RoF is 6 rage gained IF you are hitting 3 targets, Meteor 8 rage lost IF 3 targets more if less than 3. Whether you want to believe it or not there is actually some thought that needs to be put into rotation as a mage AND heals have what we like to call COOLDOWNS, 15 seconds on Resto, 60 seconds on BL without Talent.
Now when I used the "WITHOUT BL" description of a fight between a knight and a mage at 65k+ BR was there anything ELSE you didn't understand or have I finally made my point as to why heals are necessary for mages to survive in PvP at near end-game levels?

Oh yeah mages can get 18 rage per second.. my bad ... u have just proved my point of rage generation even more....
Plus i dont want mages to complain here... as mages secretly know that they are OP but they wont admit ofc... i want to hear from a non mage player that they own 60 pve leg mages....
Plus if any mage 65k+ Br does not have atleast a 40% EWD then they are dumbasses... i know many have 45% EWD.. if a mage has low level astrals then ofc they are not included in the debate...
You talked about end game my friend?? at end game evry class has everything maxed up... we're talking 50% extra aoe damage here.... u really think knights or archers would survive that bombardment while they are trying to clear 1800 troop count level 80 templars out?? you have no idea how HARD it is to clear troops out....

[kattuktk]

*sigh*
Turn 1: Holy Seal
Turn 2: Ult Slash
Turn 3: Rune, Brutality perhaps?
Turn 4: Ult Slash
Turn 5: Agoran Shield perhaps?
Turn 6:Ult Slash
Turn 7: Whirlwind
Turn 8: Ult Slash

Dunno if that works out rage wise, if not can cut the Agoran round an replace it with Whirlwind round.. But quite easily you can pound on the Mage over and over, for up to 8 rounds?

I have 10k Pdef, Archers of my level and BR have 20k Attack, They crit me for 20k with AP. so 2 or 3x AP, I'm done for... If Archer has 100 rage (BG) Then I am screwed.
Armor Piercer has no cooldown, just a cost of 35 rage.

It appears to me you've tried the above but used Whirlwind too early and mage healed himself and attacks then went to troops.

I had to stop reading after Turn 4...but i tried to continue on painfully..
Ult slash has 5 second CD theres no way your using brut rune which activates instantly and then using ult slash again...if u try that technique you would be auto attacking while you are waiting for the 5 sec CD to go away..
The ONLY way to make your technique work is to delay the timing of the rune use(use it just before u are about to auto attack) and then delay the timing of the ult slash... in short giving mages 2 extra turns to wreak havoc.
Plus no offense but if you are facing archers with 20k Attack then you are pretty much facing a 60 leg set archer... if you have a 60 leg set(as we are talking same power here) then your PDEF should be atleast 12.5k if not more and your MATK should be 19kish... if your PDEF is 10k even if you use the 60 leg gear then you did not balance your stats out properly.

[Smoldering]

I had to stop reading after Turn 2...
Ult slash has 5 second CD theres no way your using brut rune which activates instantly and then using ult slash again...if u try that technique you would be auto attacking while you are waiting for the 5 sec CD to go away..
The ONLY way to make your technique work is to delay the timing of the rune use(use it just before u are about to auto attack) and then delay the timing of the ult slash... in short giving mages 2 extra turns to wreak havoc

Yea, delay it alittle, I don't see the problem with delaying it. And it'll be one extra turn they get at best.
Also, mages gain 18 fage yes. However with one skill only, we use ANY other skill, it drains rage, and often badly.

[anichaos]

hmm...

Turn 1: Holy Seal
Turn 2: Ult Slash
Turn 3: Rune, Brutality perhaps?
Turn 4: Ult Slash
Turn 5: Agoran Shield perhaps?
Turn 6:Ult Slash
Turn 7: Whirlwind
Turn 8: Ult Slash

would be like this instead if you count in Rage (with 30 starting Rage)


Knights gain +10 rage for any action

Turn 1: Holy Seal (only a chance, and if opposing have same rank, it's 0% stun rate) +10 rage (40 rage total)
Turn 2: Ultimate Slasher (most likely hit opposing Troops unless your own Troop hits the Mage in first turn, which is very low chance)
Turn 3: Brutality Rune +10 rage (50 rage total)
Turn 4: wait a bit, Ultimate Slasher (by this time, Troops most definitely have lowest HP, so you hit Troops only)
Turn 5: Agoran Shield -30 rage (30 rage total)
Turn 6: Ultimate Slasher (30 rage total)
Turn 7: Shield is probably broken, Slasher +15 rage (45 rage total)
Turn 8: Slasher again, because Whirlwind cost 50 rage +15 rage (60 rage total)
Turn 9: Whirlwind -50 rage (20 rage total)
Turn 10: Ultimate Slasher (20 rage total)
Turn 11: woot, by this time if opposing Troops aren't dead, you are probably dead.


Of course, the above is based on your movesets and going up against others of same BR/Gear, some Knights have different play styles like ones that uses Whirlwind as fast as possible before any other attacks.

[ElusionM]

I had to stop reading after Turn 2...but i continued on painfully..
Ult slash has 5 second CD theres no way your using brut rune which activates instantly and then using ult slash again...turn 7 whirlwind?? SERIOUSLY?? it has a fuckin 30 sec CD.. PLAY KNIGHT MY FRIEND!! dont comment unnecessarily

Lol, Right, use of runeis not exactly instant, sometimes you have to wait for opponent to cast first..so maybe 2-3 seconds? then wait til CD is up and use it, avoid using any other attacks.

As I said, use whirlwind later rather than sooner. Who cares about Cooldown on it, you haven't used it in the previous turns so eh, it's ready and available. If you use it too early then you face the problem of Mage using Restoration on himself and now you are stuck attacking troops.

I'm a mage, I have never seen a Knight get through my troops and kill me, without being seriously overpowered (10k+ BR)
I have however seen people use Ultimate Slasher and bring me really low, even if I'm 10k BR ahead of them.

Seems to me you need to play a mage more than anything, learn a mage, learn their cooldown times, learn their weaknesses and strengths because you've got it stuck in your head that we win because we can kill troops faster.

EDIT: Anichaos, if a knight uses Holy Seal, then the player becomes lowest HP. So the Ultimate Slasher will target player, not troops

[kattuktk]

Yea, delay it alittle, I don't see the problem with delaying it. And it'll be one extra turn they get at best.
Also, mages gain 18 fage yes. However with one skill only, we use ANY other skill, it drains rage, and often badly.

2 turns..
The mage attacks while you delay your rune...
The mage attacks while you delay your Ult slash
when you select ult slash and mage seleft Rof then rof will hit first..

[Zaaqen]

Well since this game is based around rock paper scissor in pvp, it would make sense that knights are complaining about mages given that they are their natural counter.

So if the question is really, "What can knights do to counter mages?" - The answer is nothing. They're not suppose to be able to. (In reality there are thing they can do to some degree, but a mage of slightly lower BR should still take a knight faily well as per the game balance)

As for archers, in pve gear, with AP only costing 35 rage, they can completely wreck mages. Once you take a couple aoes, pop a bloodthirsty on those troops you've barely touched and you've got yourself a win.

Seems right to me?

EDIT: I'm not saying PVP is perfectly balanced by any means, but it's not as far off as people try to make it out to be.