Have mages been made too OP ?

[TheTylerLee]

Arrows rip into mages ^.^

[kattuktk]

Yea, delay it alittle, I don't see the problem with delaying it. And it'll be one extra turn they get at best.
Also, mages gain 18 fage yes. However with one skill only, we use ANY other skill, it drains rage, and often badly.

Also two turn delay is very, very vital against a mage... in those 2 turns they can hit u real hard or build rage for a resto or BL... u cant delay turns against a mage my friend... u CAN against a knight as they are completely useless... they would probably be trying to kill the troops in those two turns... mage class is very unforgiving as an opponent.

[kattuktk]

Well since this game is based around rock paper scissor in pvp, it would make sense that knights are complaining about mages given that they are their natural counter.

So if the question is really, "What can knights do to counter mages?" - The answer is nothing. They're not suppose to be able to. (In reality there are thing they can do to some degree, but a mage of slightly lower BR should still take a knight faily well as per the game balance)

As for archers, in pve gear, with AP only costing 35 rage, they can completely wreck mages. Once you take a couple aoes, pop a bloodthirsty on those troops you've barely touched and you've got yourself a win.

Seems right to me?

EDIT: I'm not saying PVP is perfectly balanced by any means, but it's not as far off as people try to make it out to be.

Play cross server arena with mages wreaking havoc and restoring teams to full health and then you'll know what im talking about.

[ElusionM]

hmm...



would be like this instead if you count in Rage (with 30 starting Rage)


Knights gain +10 rage for any action

Turn 1: Holy Seal (only a chance, and if opposing have same rank, it's 0% stun rate) +10 rage (40 rage total)
Turn 2: Ultimate Slasher (most likely hit opposing Troops unless your own Troop hits the Mage in first turn, which is very low chance)
Turn 3: Brutality Rune +10 rage (50 rage total)
Turn 4: wait a bit, Ultimate Slasher (by this time, Troops most definitely have lowest HP, so you hit Troops only)
Turn 5: Agoran Shield -30 rage (30 rage total)
Turn 6: Ultimate Slasher (30 rage total)
Turn 7: Shield is probably broken, Slasher +15 rage (45 rage total)
Turn 8: Slasher again, because Whirlwind cost 50 rage +15 rage (60 rage total)
Turn 9: Whirlwind -50 rage (20 rage total)
Turn 10: Ultimate Slasher (20 rage total)
Turn 11: woot, by this time if opposing Troops aren't dead, you are probably dead.


Of course, the above is based on your movesets and going up against others of same BR/Gear, some Knights have different play styles like ones that uses Whirlwind as fast as possible before any other attacks.

Turn 8 Should be Ultimate Slasher if the mage isn't dead already. Objective is to constantly Ultimate Slasher the mage and avoid damaging the troops.
Holy Seal to start with will weaken the Mage, meaning he will take the following Ultimate Slashers.. If you're failing to weaken the mage enough then your Attack is too low? Lol Somehow troops are dealing more damage which just means you're weak.

Again, Objective is to keep their troops alive and at full HP or as high as possible. You want to avoid attacking them until the mage is dead.
Also if we're assuming Battelgrounds, then players can start with 100 rage. So rage cost is easier, once you have player down you can rage build on troops for next battle.
Also, PVE gear is essential for all. I get some players are lazy or stupid and don't bother.. But it is the best gear for PVP.

Play cross server arena with mages wreaking havoc and restoring teams to full health and then you'll know what im talking about.

Cross server arena? Seriously?
Okay fine.
1. If they're healing, then you should too, it's essential.
2. Mages go down quickly. By them healing the Knight of their party it can and most often does put him at higher HP and mages at lower HP so, you could still use Ultimate Slasher to drop the mages off.
3. Everyone dealing as much damage as possible first turn will not always let you win. You use up most of your rage and get left with crappy skills since they just healed =D

[FarrelBrown]

Oh yeah mages can get 18 rage per second.. my bad ... u have just proved my point of rage generation even more....
Plus i dont want mages to complain here... as mages secretly know that they are OP but they wont admit ofc... i want to hear from a non mage player that they own 60 pve leg mages....
Plus if any mage 65k+ Br does not have atleast a 40% EWD then they are dumbasses... i know many have 45% EWD.. if a mage has low level astrals then ofc they are not included in the debate...
You talked about end game my friend?? at end game evry class has everything maxed up... we're talking 50% extra aoe damage here.... u really think knights or archers would survive that bombardment while they are trying to clear 1800 troop count level 80 templars out?? you have no idea how HARD it is to clear troops out....

While I usually have a lot of fun shooting down EVERYTHING you say this is becoming tedious. Tell you what if you don't want to have this discussion with a mage because we know we are OP but won't admit it then I don't want to have this conversation with a knight because they all think that their class sucks when it can actually be VERY potent if built correctly.
Now that whole 18 rage per second thing shows me that your reading comprehension is at the same level as your math (see arenas thread). Not only does Bolt have a casting time but it has a 1 second CD. That means it takes MORE than 1 second between castings (more like 3 seconds if you want to be realistic although I never went to the trouble of using a stop-watch). But of course you are right I have no idea what I'm talking about and a 65k+ BR mage should have EVERYTHING maxed it's just so obvious why wouldn't I have all level 10 astrals and full 60 legendary gear. Take a look at the top 10 for cross-server rankings and tell me how many 65k BRs you see.....that's right...none because the top 10 cross-server are 85-90k BR with almost maxed astrals and full legendary 60 gear. Near-end game is very different than end game and since I know for a fact from your posts and SSs elsewhere on these forums that you are nowhere close to even Near-end game you should probably stop arguing the point. Mages are the bane of a knights existence in the 45-59k BR range I will freely admit that. In 65k+ range mages HAVE to use their healing to win otherwise they get squashed into jelly.

[Zaaqen]

Play cross server arena with mages wreaking havoc and restoring teams to full health and then you'll know what im talking about.

Mages shine for group arena right when BL+Dual AoE becomes a viable strategy. The higher you get, the more you will see how a single BL against a team without one won't just be an instant win. Yes, it will make a difference.. So will an EDD, and it's almost as easy for a knight to get the rage for that in PVE gear as a mage for BL.

But that aside - AoE fest opener skews group arena quite a bit. Since this balances down damage (relative to defense, of course) it's absolutely perfect for BL to instantly counter it. If you suspect a mage is going for BL, time to change up the strategy and try to throw off their timing. It certainly won't work every time, but nothing works every time.

[krackenker]

Oh yeah mages can get 18 rage per second.. my bad ... u have just proved my point of rage generation even more....
Plus i dont want mages to complain here... as mages secretly know that they are OP but they wont admit ofc... i want to hear from a non mage player that they own 60 pve leg mages....
Plus if any mage 65k+ Br does not have atleast a 40% EWD then they are dumbasses... i know many have 45% EWD.. if a mage has low level astrals then ofc they are not included in the debate...
You talked about end game my friend?? at end game evry class has everything maxed up... we're talking 50% extra aoe damage here.... u really think knights or archers would survive that bombardment while they are trying to clear 1800 troop count level 80 templars out?? you have no idea how HARD it is to clear troops out....

First off: bolt has 1 sec cd and the average bolt takes maybe 5 sec to cast from click-rage gained. Meaning rage gain/sec: 18/6=3rage/sec. (for pve set mage)
To be able to have enough rage you need careful planning, but it's possible.... BUT IT IS NOT EASY... ALL skills except rof is expensive... and unlike other classes we lose rage when using our 2nd skill (RoF vs US vs MS) .. after playing all classes it's a big disadvantage in pvp. Unlike other classes mage heals makes them lose a turn, so in terms of healing you lose around 1/3 of a heal and.. a lot of rage<.<
What many ppl do wrong is that they try to kill a mage asap.. What works the best is to wait until 50% and bomb the mage^^ Combos that are meant to take out mages fast often fails due to the heals, and then you are back to dealing troops. If you die before 50%, then it's not the mage... then it's you that's the problem.

[krackenker]

Mages shine for group arena right when BL+Dual AoE becomes a viable strategy. The higher you get, the more you will see how a single BL against a team without one won't just be an instant win. Yes, it will make a difference.. So will an EDD, and it's almost as easy for a knight to get the rage for that in PVE gear as a mage for BL.

But that aside - AoE fest opener skews group arena quite a bit. Since this balances down damage (relative to defense, of course) it's absolutely perfect for BL to instantly counter it. If you suspect a mage is going for BL, time to change up the strategy and try to throw off their timing. It certainly won't work every time, but nothing works every time.

Yep, instead of ppl throwing out their lunatics/WWs at turn 1-2, try to stall the aoes and force them to use BL, then dish out the aoes and that BLs heal is gone.. and the mage lost all their rage^^

Sorry for double post, forgot to multiquote.

[YAMAZORDX]

Well well well...plz allow me to reffer you to your own post you started the 12/02/2012 talking about: How to compete againest knights: and starting with the followings:

Well im sure most of the guys lvl 55+ think the same way as me, knights r just too OP in this game, they easily own the same BR archers and also win against the mages.....one of the reasons is their PATK and the other classes lack PDEF, sure mages also have MATK and others lack MDEF but they dont have the ******* high HP of knights, neither the passive ability to heal 30-40% of the times, also they have a passive boost for 3 stats(PDEF, HP, PATK) while others dont, so my question is very clear....how do u compete against them?? knights r supposed to be weak against mages but im sure a knight will beat up a same BR mage(with knight troops to hide behind) past lvl 60, they already r too much OP in guild battles and their skills have the highest damage, why is that?? they are not supposed to be DPS but their skills have higher damage potential than archs' skills. Seriously how to stop their domination?
Last edited by kattuktk; 12-02-2012 at 05:55 PM.

source: http://forum.r2games.com/showthread....en-made-too-OP

...that was you not me huh ? playing an archer character of lvl 55+ (if i'm not wrong) and you complained about Knights, you changed to play a knight and you complene about mages, maybe you should next creat a mage and in 1 month later i can wait your post complening about archers.

and 1 more thing...

You think mages are defense less?? tell me "any" game in which a knights "STEEL" class helmet gives the same PDEF as a mage's "HAT"

i never thought that a mage hat would give the same PDEF as a knights steel helmet

dude dont forget mages' hat gives the same PDEF

...please tell me why your IRON helmet have the same MDEF as mages have and why all the 3 class's head gear have the same stat bonus with same enchant lvl...

hop you come to your sens...

[Billy_McF]

Of course mages are OP.

You can't dispute the fact, when AOE's are hitting toon and troops for around 1/3 of hero HP, it has to be overpowered. No argument.

[rheasteer]

Well well well...plz allow me to reffer you to your own post you started the 12/02/2012 talking about: How to compete againest knights: and starting with the followings:

source: http://forum.r2games.com/showthread....en-made-too-OP

...that was you not me huh ? playing an archer character of lvl 55+ (if i'm not wrong) and you complained about Knights, you changed to play a knight and you complene about mages, maybe you should next creat a mage and in 1 month later i can wait your post complening about archers.

Hilarious! Does this mean the only class he have not yet whined about being OP are the archers? So yeah, he should follow your advice to create mage so now he'll complain about archers. With that, the whinefest for every class will be completed.

[krackenker]

Of course mages are OP.

You can't dispute the fact, when AOE's are hitting toon and troops for around 1/3 of hero HP, it has to be overpowered. No argument.

1/3 of hero hp? dafuq have you done wrong ._. AT BEST (for the mage) you should take 1/5... for a fair fight... 1/8-1/10^^

[Billy_McF]

1/3 of hero hp? dafuq have you done wrong ._. AT BEST (for the mage) you should take 1/5... for a fair fight... 1/8-1/10^^

LOL maybe I did over exaggerate a bit. Got mixed up with Delphic Thunder or whatever it's called.

But even if you take it as 1/5, saying as mages can spam AOE 3 out of 5 attacks to start, it still makes them a tad overpowered as the other classes only really have 1 AOE that can be used without max rage build up.
And please don't come with the argument to target the mage 1st, this just can't be done effectively unless your starting with 70+ rage.

[ElusionM]

It's really the only effective way though Billy, it takes too long for knights to clear my troops, that's if they can even kill one of em... let alone 2. Seen 60k BR knights fail, I'm 60k BR mage.
Though had they used Holy Seal on me, entirely different story.

I don't know why people think the heal makes a difference.

Problem I think is people are so use to easily killing knights (troops) that they think the same strategy works against Templars, and when they do try it against someone stronger and it fails, they think it's the strategies fault and not just the simple fact they were too weak to pull it off

[AllyMae]

Yes no suntoria, no restoration is the way it should have been... have a class do just one job and not multiple jobs all at once..... You think 80 rage is too high for BL? tell me the effects of casting one BL is less than that of a knight or archer's delphic?? the rage cost shouls be based on the effect that a skill has.... and BL is the most effective skill in "any" situation without a doubt.. it restores your entire party to almost full health!!
You think mages are defense less?? tell me "any" game in which a knights "STEEL" class helmet gives the same PDEF as a mage's "HAT"

You missed 1 thing. BL may cost not that much but its CD sucks (1min)! PVE mage, given +10 every attack can't even spam it even if a mage wants to especially in higher level MPDs. Think about why the best team in Moon/DT is 2 mages + 2 archers. It's because even if u are a PVE mage, u can't spam your heals because of the CD.