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Mage Talents: Momentum & Survival

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  • Zorich
    started a topic Mage Talents: Momentum & Survival

    Mage Talents: Momentum & Survival

    Is it me, or does Momentum get ridiculously good at high levels?

    Firstly, Meteoric Destroyer is the best damage AoE Mage's have at 142% (in two hits) +800 (as a 3rd hit when triggered) & +25% QTE.

    The Talent, Momentum, gradually reduces the Cooldown of Meteoric Destroyer - which starts at 15 Seconds and Consumes 30 Rage.

    Talent L1 (Req Holy Seal 5): Meteoric Destroyer is now 12s CD, Chance* to Restore 1% Max HP.
    Talent L2 (Req Holy Seal 15): Meteoric Destroyer is now 11s CD, Chance* to Restore 2% Max HP.
    Talent L3 (Req Holy Seal 25): Meteoric Destroyer is now 10s CD, Chance* to Restore 3% Max HP.
    Talent L4 (Req Holy Seal 35): Meteoric Destroyer is now 9s CD, Chance* to Restore 4% Max HP.
    Talent L5 (Req Holy Seal 45): Meteoric Destroyer is now 8s CD, Chance* to Restore 5% Max HP.
    Talent L6 (Req Holy Seal 55): Meteoric Destroyer is now 7s CD, Chance* to Restore 6% Max HP.
    Talent L7 (Req Holy Seal 65): Meteoric Destroyer is now 6s CD, Chance* to Restore 7% Max HP.
    Talent L8 (Req Holy Seal 75): Meteoric Destroyer is now 5s CD, Chance* to Restore 8% Max HP.
    Talent L9 (Req Holy Seal 85): Meteoric Destroyer is now 4s CD, Chance* to Restore 9% Max HP.
    Talent L10 (Req Holy Seal 95): Meteoric Destroyer is now 3s CD, Chance* to Restore 10% Max HP.

    What starts out as a fairly mediocre talent becomes quite exceptional as both CD decreases while HP Restoration increases. The question is - what is that "chance" of HP Restoration? Because at 10%, that's a hefty sum of HP. Upwards of 6500 on many high-level Mages. But then I start to think of this as a game mechanic as well. Not only is the chance at gaining back huge HP nice, but the 3s CD also makes me entertain some thoughts...

    With a PvE set, the Spell returns 10 Rage + 4 Rage per Target Hit (2 per hit per taget). So fighting a full group in a Guild Battle only results in a net-loss of 4 Rage. When the +800 Damage triggers it's as a 3rd strike, so now, against 4 Targets, one gains an additional 8 Rage (2 per target) making the Rage cost a net-gain of 4 Rage.

    Even in a Class-War, 3v3 or BG situation, against 3 Targets, being able to double-cast Meteoric Destroyer under Brutality means hefty AoE Damage at a mere net-loss of only 8 Rage per Casting, and the possibility of getting a return of early HP loss is significant as well.

    Now, onto Survival.

    I've read in many places that Survival isn't a great talent because one can heal more over time w/o taking it. I thought about this and plugged the numbers into a Spreadsheet and here's what you get (numbers based on 20,000 MAtk w/o Consideration of EWD):

    Talent L0 : 15s CD, 75% +300 Heal = ~15,300 Healing, ~437 Heal / Rage Pt, ~1,020 Healing / Sec
    Talent L1 : 20s CD, 95% +300 Heal = ~19,300 Healing, ~551 Heal / Rage Pt, ~965 Healing / Sec
    Talent L2 : 21s CD, 100% +300 Heal = ~20,300 Healing, ~580 Heal / Rage Pt, ~967 Healing / Sec
    Talent L3 : 22s CD, 105% +300 Heal = ~21,300 Healing, ~609 Heal / Rage Pt, ~968 Healing / Sec
    Talent L4 : 23s CD, 110% +300 Heal = ~22,300 Healing, ~637 Heal / Rage Pt, ~970 Healing / Sec
    Talent L5 : 24s CD, 115% +300 Heal = ~23,300 Healing, ~666 Heal / Rage Pt, ~971 Healing / Sec
    Talent L6 : 25s CD, 120% +300 Heal = ~24,300 Healing, ~694 Heal / Rage Pt, ~972 Healing / Sec
    Talent L7 : 26s CD, 125% +300 Heal = ~25,300 Healing, ~723 Heal / Rage Pt, ~973 Healing / Sec
    Talent L8 : 27s CD, 130% +300 Heal = ~26,300 Healing, ~751 Heal / Rage Pt, ~974 Healing / Sec
    Talent L9 : 28s CD, 135% +300 Heal = ~27,300 Healing, ~780 Heal / Rage Pt, ~975 Healing / Sec
    Talent L10 : 29s CD, 140% +300 Heal = ~28,300 Healing, ~809 Heal / Rage Pt, ~976 Healing / Sec

    Now, while the Healing / Second rate did drop, the amount of Healing done per point of Rage has nearly doubled over the course of 10 Talents. What's more, in considering just the jump from Talent L0 to Talent L1, the addition 5s of CD isn't lost. It's allowing for 1 extra action to take place before the next Resotration for a loss of only 5% Healing / Sec. Normally, one could get off 3 Actions between each Restoration w/o any Survival Talent. With just one Survival Level, a player can now execute 4 actions between Restorations. This becomes more pronounced over time as well. That's extra rage-gaining actions (LBs) for those in PvP gear, or extra offensive actions (Maybe a Thunderer or two?) for those in PvE gear. And that's just going to L1. In Theory, if someone were to take it to L10, they would have 6 Actions between restorations instead of 3.

    I personally think it's well worth it to keep piling on this talent and gaining more time between castings to allow for additional damage to be dealt.

    All comments and thoughts welcome...

  • krackenker
    replied
    Against knigths: Rof-sunt-resto-thunderer
    (and obvious bolt) If it is in bg with stacked up rage: Rof-BL-resto/sunt-thunderer

    Leave a comment:


  • FarrelBrown
    replied
    Originally posted by SinnedWill View Post
    On knights in solo duels I stick to Bolt, RoF, Damnation, Thunderer, Resto skills on bar. Problem is I find meteor to lack the punching power on those block-stacking knights. I do my best not to use RoF (or meteor) on knights since they offer greater chances for the knight to receive a block-heal proc. Sure, taking out troops ASAP is a priority, don't get me wrong, but I need the punching power from my 4/4 thunderer spec in addition to damnation to "tank-bust" certain good knights. And yes, heal-spec mages are the ultimate trolls of group arena and BG, you do a great job at that, no doubt, lol.

    Point I was trying to make about meteor (and RoF for that matter) is that against opponents with high MDEF, the damage values they put out are pretty poor (until damage bonus time kicks in or brutality rune is used) by comparison to the DPS other classes throw out, and you certainly can't rely on the %-healing received bonus to proc often enough to factor it in heavily enough to consider it a boost to your survivability. Not saying momentum/meteor isn't a viable skill-set, it certainly can be, I'm just biased against meteor I think due to the fact that it's a pre-req for puri, and, well, I really hated resetting skill points long ago to pick up puri for bloodlands so many moons ago
    Yeah I can see where you are coming from with the block stacking. After troops are gone I don't use AoEs (Just rely on bolt for rage with spot heals and a well-timed Brut rune/Damage timer/Thunderer). I gave up on Damnation a while ago mostly because by itself it does very little damage without points in Misfortune. I may go back to it as I get my HS up to a reasonable level (Have been seriously slacking on it because I reallocated points into Talents for Class Wars.
    Last edited by FarrelBrown; 08-09-2013, 11:03 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SinnedWill
    replied
    Originally posted by FarrelBrown View Post
    I'm going to slightly disagree with you here. I absolutely don't advocate spamming MD every 3-6 seconds, depending on how many ranks you have in Momentum, but against pretty much any knight I need to drop 2 AoE's immediately to wipe out their troops so rather than waiting for RoF to come off CD I will put down MD second and then start in on bolt to gain rage so I can feel out the situation from there. Usually don't cast it again the entire fight but for those first 2 turns it's my mainstay. GA of course I definitely agree since my standard opening for that is going to be RoF, Bolt, BL or Resto and as mages our "job" in Arena is to **** everyone else off by healing our team before they die.

    As for WB I definitely disagree. My previous WB rotation was Thunderer (open), auto+bolt, auto+RoF, auto+bolt, Auto+RoF, Thunderer w/o double. I could maintain this rotation for about 3-4 rounds maybe more with Castinator or ring proccs. After getting my Momentum to rank 3 I switched up to Thunderer (open), auto+RoF, auto+MD, auto+RoF, auto+MD, auto+RoF. Now that rotation I can keep going on average for about 6-8 rounds before I need to do a rage gain round with a couple of auto+bolt combos and it gives me about an extra 10-15k Gold/Daru per round increase (was averaging 115-125k with just Vouchers at below level 10 Inspiration and went to 125-140k) . So for ME the sweet spot was 3 ranks as it allows for that RoF/MD "spam" with no downtime.
    On knights in solo duels I stick to Bolt, RoF, Damnation, Thunderer, Resto skills on bar. Problem is I find meteor to lack the punching power on those block-stacking knights. I do my best not to use RoF (or meteor) on knights since they offer greater chances for the knight to receive a block-heal proc. Sure, taking out troops ASAP is a priority, don't get me wrong, but I need the punching power from my 4/4 thunderer spec in addition to damnation to "tank-bust" certain good knights. And yes, heal-spec mages are the ultimate trolls of group arena and BG, you do a great job at that, no doubt, lol.

    Point I was trying to make about meteor (and RoF for that matter) is that against opponents with high MDEF, the damage values they put out are pretty poor (until damage bonus time kicks in or brutality rune is used) by comparison to the DPS other classes throw out, and you certainly can't rely on the %-healing received bonus to proc often enough to factor it in heavily enough to consider it a boost to your survivability. Not saying momentum/meteor isn't a viable skill-set, it certainly can be, I'm just biased against meteor I think due to the fact that it's a pre-req for puri, and, well, I really hated resetting skill points long ago to pick up puri for bloodlands so many moons ago
    Last edited by SinnedWill; 08-09-2013, 09:44 AM.

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  • SinnedWill
    replied
    Originally posted by FarrelBrown View Post
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]50683[/ATTACH]
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]50684[/ATTACH]

    These are my two skill trees. I know you are wondering about single skill tree and you are level 64 vs my 74 but it's at least something to look at and see what you can get later. As for what to level I would say work more towards the full heals build with Thunderer something you take at a later date. Rank 4 RoF may be the BIG gain rank but rank 5 is still a pretty decent damage gain and Bolt should be maxed as well before starting on your Thunderer skill chain. That's juts my 2 cents tho.
    Virtually identical heals tree to me, bud (thumbs up).

    Leave a comment:


  • Mitashki
    replied
    Thanks, thats confirming what i thought myself. Im working towards my LD medailon once i have that i will start leveling fast again. In 200~ loids im done with my pve set so thunderer seemed to be a big boost but than again with 1 tree there is not much option to go.

    Issue is that with 1 tree i will have rof / LB 5 at level 68 and for max thunderer i will need another 7 skills...

    So thats not even possible at level 80 lol

    Leave a comment:


  • FarrelBrown
    replied
    Originally posted by Mitashki View Post
    Guys sorry for the OT but i see a lot of ppl here are talking about meteor and at the same time thunderer. What is your skill tree if you dont have double skills? Im 64 level now and I'm facing decision if i should go level 5 RoF/LB or start leveling my delphic/thunderer which are both level 0 now.

    Any recomendation is highly appreciated.
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    These are my two skill trees. I know you are wondering about single skill tree and you are level 64 vs my 74 but it's at least something to look at and see what you can get later. As for what to level I would say work more towards the full heals build with Thunderer something you take at a later date. Rank 4 RoF may be the BIG gain rank but rank 5 is still a pretty decent damage gain and Bolt should be maxed as well before starting on your Thunderer skill chain. That's juts my 2 cents tho.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mitashki
    replied
    Guys sorry for the OT but i see a lot of ppl here are talking about meteor and at the same time thunderer. What is your skill tree if you dont have double skills? Im 64 level now and I'm facing decision if i should go level 5 RoF/LB or start leveling my delphic/thunderer which are both level 0 now.

    Any recomendation is highly appreciated.

    Leave a comment:


  • FarrelBrown
    replied
    Originally posted by SinnedWill View Post
    Certainly not the best skill to use on a good knight, nor do I suggest its usage in WB with any frequency.
    I'm going to slightly disagree with you here. I absolutely don't advocate spamming MD every 3-6 seconds, depending on how many ranks you have in Momentum, but against pretty much any knight I need to drop 2 AoE's immediately to wipe out their troops so rather than waiting for RoF to come off CD I will put down MD second and then start in on bolt to gain rage so I can feel out the situation from there. Usually don't cast it again the entire fight but for those first 2 turns it's my mainstay. GA of course I definitely agree since my standard opening for that is going to be RoF, Bolt, BL or Resto and as mages our "job" in Arena is to **** everyone else off by healing our team before they die.

    As for WB I definitely disagree. My previous WB rotation was Thunderer (open), auto+bolt, auto+RoF, auto+bolt, Auto+RoF, Thunderer w/o double. I could maintain this rotation for about 3-4 rounds maybe more with Castinator or ring proccs. After getting my Momentum to rank 3 I switched up to Thunderer (open), auto+RoF, auto+MD, auto+RoF, auto+MD, auto+RoF. Now that rotation I can keep going on average for about 6-8 rounds before I need to do a rage gain round with a couple of auto+bolt combos and it gives me about an extra 10-15k Gold/Daru per round increase (was averaging 115-125k with just Vouchers at below level 10 Inspiration and went to 125-140k) . So for ME the sweet spot was 3 ranks as it allows for that RoF/MD "spam" with no downtime.
    Last edited by FarrelBrown; 08-08-2013, 11:41 PM.

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  • Nimras186
    replied
    Originally posted by SinnedWill View Post
    Nimras, my point was that the bonus "chance to hit" damage attached in meteor doesn't give the +2 rage.

    My starting rage: 39. Used meteor on single target (friend without troops), here's the results:

    Extra damage didn't 'proc': 39-30 = 9; Hits twice (+4), PvE set (+10); net return (+14), new total rage = 23 (thus, 14 rage back). Ended that battle to start again.
    Extra damage DID 'proc': 39-30 = 9; Hits THREE TIMES (still +4), PvE set (+10); net return (still +14), new total rage = 23 (again, 14 rage back).

    Tested, confirmed.
    Ahh my bad i misunderstood you

    Leave a comment:


  • SinnedWill
    replied
    Nimras, my point was that the bonus "chance to hit" damage attached in meteor doesn't give the +2 rage.

    My starting rage: 39. Used meteor on single target (friend without troops), here's the results:

    Extra damage didn't 'proc': 39-30 = 9; Hits twice (+4), PvE set (+10); net return (+14), new total rage = 23 (thus, 14 rage back). Ended that battle to start again.
    Extra damage DID 'proc': 39-30 = 9; Hits THREE TIMES (still +4), PvE set (+10); net return (still +14), new total rage = 23 (again, 14 rage back).

    Tested, confirmed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nimras186
    replied
    Originally posted by ShiKKihS View Post
    proc damage of meteor does not gain rage.. tested it in wilds.. 4 mobs should give me 16from passive + 10pve set = 26 gain rage ; in other words you loss 4 rage.. tested it with a proc damage and with out.. still i get same rage after the fight
    Well again i have never used MET much as its on my healing set lol. And everytime i done the Met i never really noticed if it does more than 2 hits.

    BUT against 4 targets will the MET gain you back 16 rage of the 30 used.

    But lets say you meet 6 then you get 24 back plus the 10 from your pve = 34 rage.

    But again next time i use MET and if i see it hits 3 times will i look at my rage gain and come back with a answer if it works.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nimras186
    replied
    Originally posted by SinnedWill View Post
    Ok, must be your luck.



    Test this on one target (a guildy or friend) and please confirm it if you don't mind. I've only gotten 14 rage back (10 from set for taking action, 4 from lv. 2 heart elemental due to the 2 guaranteed hits) from a single target hit with meteor, regardless of whether or not the additional hit has procced (if heart elemental works on the additional 'proc' damage you'll be getting 16 rage back in this situation - which I've never seen occur, but I suppose they could've stealthily implemented it in a patch). If you can't test/confirm it while I'm at work, I will test/confirm later, regardless of whether I like it or not.
    BUT you just said it your self TEST IT ON ONE TARGET.

    1 TARGET = 4 rage max.

    Why RoF does 2 hits, there is only 1 target = 4 rage.

    No with pve set and 21 rage this would be the outcome.

    21 - 16 = 5
    5 + 10 from PVE = 15
    15 + 4 from the 2 RoF hits = 19 rage left

    It does work, Againt i never tested with MET where it does more than 2 hits, but every time it does 2 hits on each target have i gained the rage i should.

    About the other not luck everyone i know of mages on my server have had no problem with rage being given by Blessed light, and NOW AND THEN by survival.

    Remember its a chance from what i have gathered its a 10% chance.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeathRiver
    replied
    @R23209055: Not much problem as far as I've seen. The healing amount got a bit wider in range (read as floating value), but overall, increased as depicted in talent level.

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  • R23209055
    replied
    Originally posted by DeathRiver View Post
    I have level 7 Momentum and level 6 Survival. And personally, I think it is fine to take Survival up to level 10. Since there aren't many situation where you would need that much healing that fast. During CW, it might pose a problem due to being a bit slow, but with the new rune system, things kinda got remedied. For most of other situations, you'd have Blessed Light in rotation with Restoration, when both of their talents match level, things even out.
    hmm, have u noticed anything wrong with ur survival at lvl 6? i used to had survival lvl 1, and then i redid my talent and got it to lvl 4 and noticed that most of the time i was healing the same amount as before, and sometimes even less. There may have been a turn where i healed 2 or 3k more, but those were rare, and almost never happened.

    Leave a comment:

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