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Mage Talents: Momentum & Survival

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  • Mage Talents: Momentum & Survival

    Is it me, or does Momentum get ridiculously good at high levels?

    Firstly, Meteoric Destroyer is the best damage AoE Mage's have at 142% (in two hits) +800 (as a 3rd hit when triggered) & +25% QTE.

    The Talent, Momentum, gradually reduces the Cooldown of Meteoric Destroyer - which starts at 15 Seconds and Consumes 30 Rage.

    Talent L1 (Req Holy Seal 5): Meteoric Destroyer is now 12s CD, Chance* to Restore 1% Max HP.
    Talent L2 (Req Holy Seal 15): Meteoric Destroyer is now 11s CD, Chance* to Restore 2% Max HP.
    Talent L3 (Req Holy Seal 25): Meteoric Destroyer is now 10s CD, Chance* to Restore 3% Max HP.
    Talent L4 (Req Holy Seal 35): Meteoric Destroyer is now 9s CD, Chance* to Restore 4% Max HP.
    Talent L5 (Req Holy Seal 45): Meteoric Destroyer is now 8s CD, Chance* to Restore 5% Max HP.
    Talent L6 (Req Holy Seal 55): Meteoric Destroyer is now 7s CD, Chance* to Restore 6% Max HP.
    Talent L7 (Req Holy Seal 65): Meteoric Destroyer is now 6s CD, Chance* to Restore 7% Max HP.
    Talent L8 (Req Holy Seal 75): Meteoric Destroyer is now 5s CD, Chance* to Restore 8% Max HP.
    Talent L9 (Req Holy Seal 85): Meteoric Destroyer is now 4s CD, Chance* to Restore 9% Max HP.
    Talent L10 (Req Holy Seal 95): Meteoric Destroyer is now 3s CD, Chance* to Restore 10% Max HP.

    What starts out as a fairly mediocre talent becomes quite exceptional as both CD decreases while HP Restoration increases. The question is - what is that "chance" of HP Restoration? Because at 10%, that's a hefty sum of HP. Upwards of 6500 on many high-level Mages. But then I start to think of this as a game mechanic as well. Not only is the chance at gaining back huge HP nice, but the 3s CD also makes me entertain some thoughts...

    With a PvE set, the Spell returns 10 Rage + 4 Rage per Target Hit (2 per hit per taget). So fighting a full group in a Guild Battle only results in a net-loss of 4 Rage. When the +800 Damage triggers it's as a 3rd strike, so now, against 4 Targets, one gains an additional 8 Rage (2 per target) making the Rage cost a net-gain of 4 Rage.

    Even in a Class-War, 3v3 or BG situation, against 3 Targets, being able to double-cast Meteoric Destroyer under Brutality means hefty AoE Damage at a mere net-loss of only 8 Rage per Casting, and the possibility of getting a return of early HP loss is significant as well.

    Now, onto Survival.

    I've read in many places that Survival isn't a great talent because one can heal more over time w/o taking it. I thought about this and plugged the numbers into a Spreadsheet and here's what you get (numbers based on 20,000 MAtk w/o Consideration of EWD):

    Talent L0 : 15s CD, 75% +300 Heal = ~15,300 Healing, ~437 Heal / Rage Pt, ~1,020 Healing / Sec
    Talent L1 : 20s CD, 95% +300 Heal = ~19,300 Healing, ~551 Heal / Rage Pt, ~965 Healing / Sec
    Talent L2 : 21s CD, 100% +300 Heal = ~20,300 Healing, ~580 Heal / Rage Pt, ~967 Healing / Sec
    Talent L3 : 22s CD, 105% +300 Heal = ~21,300 Healing, ~609 Heal / Rage Pt, ~968 Healing / Sec
    Talent L4 : 23s CD, 110% +300 Heal = ~22,300 Healing, ~637 Heal / Rage Pt, ~970 Healing / Sec
    Talent L5 : 24s CD, 115% +300 Heal = ~23,300 Healing, ~666 Heal / Rage Pt, ~971 Healing / Sec
    Talent L6 : 25s CD, 120% +300 Heal = ~24,300 Healing, ~694 Heal / Rage Pt, ~972 Healing / Sec
    Talent L7 : 26s CD, 125% +300 Heal = ~25,300 Healing, ~723 Heal / Rage Pt, ~973 Healing / Sec
    Talent L8 : 27s CD, 130% +300 Heal = ~26,300 Healing, ~751 Heal / Rage Pt, ~974 Healing / Sec
    Talent L9 : 28s CD, 135% +300 Heal = ~27,300 Healing, ~780 Heal / Rage Pt, ~975 Healing / Sec
    Talent L10 : 29s CD, 140% +300 Heal = ~28,300 Healing, ~809 Heal / Rage Pt, ~976 Healing / Sec

    Now, while the Healing / Second rate did drop, the amount of Healing done per point of Rage has nearly doubled over the course of 10 Talents. What's more, in considering just the jump from Talent L0 to Talent L1, the addition 5s of CD isn't lost. It's allowing for 1 extra action to take place before the next Resotration for a loss of only 5% Healing / Sec. Normally, one could get off 3 Actions between each Restoration w/o any Survival Talent. With just one Survival Level, a player can now execute 4 actions between Restorations. This becomes more pronounced over time as well. That's extra rage-gaining actions (LBs) for those in PvP gear, or extra offensive actions (Maybe a Thunderer or two?) for those in PvE gear. And that's just going to L1. In Theory, if someone were to take it to L10, they would have 6 Actions between restorations instead of 3.

    I personally think it's well worth it to keep piling on this talent and gaining more time between castings to allow for additional damage to be dealt.

    All comments and thoughts welcome...

  • #2
    I absolutely agree that Momentum is well worth it as far as Talents go. It takes 3 ranks in order to have the CD in sync with RoF thus allowing a constant rotational spam of the two AoEs. I use this with doubles in WB and my per round gold income on Voucher buff increased by around 10-15k immediately. You will run into rage issues spamming it anywhere other than GB battles ( I'm in PvE gear with about 37 starting rage so no double casting on start of the fight). I can tell you that the healing chance is extremely low (probably below 1%) since I've had the Talent for quite a while and only noticed it proc a few times.

    Survival - I have 3 ranks of this Talent as well and what I have noticed is that at Rank 3 and later you start to run into issues in MPs unless you have a second mage. Even with DF on the boss I tend to be about 3-5 seconds behind most Bosses on their large damage single target attacks after my first casting. This can be disastrous if DF or IS happens to wear off at the wrong time due to any number of factors since a lot of the level 70+ bosses will drop the tank shortly after their single target attack if healing isn't quick to show up. A good tank and archer obviously mitigate these factors but I'm hesitant to go much farther than 3 ranks on this Talent because of this. The big bonus on Resto that people forget is the % damage reduction buff. The longer you can keep this buff up on the tank the better so a longer CD on Resto means MORE time in between on this buff.
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    • #3
      very well described through the level increase. ive been trying to figure out if the survival is worth it as well and i agree that it is in pvp for sure. ive recently cleared 70 NM and im not so sure its worth it their but overall i agree survival is well worth it. as for meteor thats just crazy fast at lvl 10 and would replace rof after so many talents in it.
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      • #4
        I have level 7 Momentum and level 6 Survival. And personally, I think it is fine to take Survival up to level 10. Since there aren't many situation where you would need that much healing that fast. During CW, it might pose a problem due to being a bit slow, but with the new rune system, things kinda got remedied. For most of other situations, you'd have Blessed Light in rotation with Restoration, when both of their talents match level, things even out.
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        • #5
          Problem I find with survival at high levels isn't the loss of healing over time, it's actually the loss of the +15% damage reduction (2 rounds) buff that follows. Resulting in not only less frequent damage reduction uses, but also on-demand usage (i.e. overpowered knight just popped brutality rune and now he has EDD over his head; where's my pre-emptive resto to top me off and make sure I survive it!?! oh, dam still on cooldown). It's a trade-off, but other than the situation I just mentioned and perhaps in group PvE (where pitter-patter restos are more effective since you can sustain the damage reduction buff on your tank more frequently), I find survival talented resto to be more useful. Then again, if you have crazy high crit, the overall healing over time will be SIGNIFICANTLY in favor of non-talented resto.

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          • #6
            @Sin: Well, that's the point of a trade off, yes? I planned myself to get about 5k crit in the future, so Survival is on hold as of late. Will need some testing afterwards, but at least one point into Survival would be better than none.
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            • #7
              Firstly, thanks for the insightful feedback. Good stuff.

              I hadn't really considered the 15% DR that Resto gives for 2 rounds. By not taking Survival at all, one could spend 50% of their combats under Resto's DR Buff, once the pesky troops are cleared away and not stealing one's Healing .

              But here's my next question on that. Is the DR from Resto a base DR, or a secondary DR. What I mean by that is this: I'm currently wearing the IC Medal (18% DR) and have GB Astral L8 (24% DR) and Barrier L3 (7% DR) for a combined 49% Damage Reduction. So if someone's doing 10K Damage to me, that's reduced to 4900K. Simple enough. Now if that DR is stacked onto the 49% total then I'm at 64% and only take 3600 Damage from said attack, but if it's after the fact, then I'm reducing 15% of 5,100, which is only -765, leaving me taking 4,335 Damage.

              Has anyone tested this? I'm really curious to know. Because if that 15% is really only ~7.5% for someone who's already got about 50% DR, then it's not quite as important compared to it being a modification of the base DR.

              And back onto Momentum - the more I think about it, it seems like at a high enough level Momentum can make Meteoric Destroyer the Mage's equivalent of the Archer's Armor Piercer. Still not quite as good - but damn nice for WB Battles, and crazy to think of as a non-stop cycler in 3v3 / BG / GB if one can keep up with the Rage to fuel it.

              Thanks again.

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              • #8
                The DR from buffs during battle are independent from those you have before battle (skills, talents, astrals, medallion, level) as far as I've tested. Haven't got enough data to figure out whether the equipped DR stack or multiply on top of each other yet.
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                • #9
                  all i can say about survival is, its seems ok.. yep cd is longer now.. but! you wont even have enough rage if you have a fast cd. and putting it in ratio(healing/sec) is not that right. during MP runs it is not that significant(longer cd). timing, thats all it need. if i have that high lvl talent i will have no doubts in investing at survival and momentum

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                  • #10
                    Momentum isn't mediocre even at level 1. It's absolutely a good choice for starting talents.
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                    • #11
                      Also you forget with survival that it has a chance to restore the targets rage with 10 rage.

                      That means in some situations you actually help the target in question.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nimras186 View Post
                        Also you forget with survival that it has a chance to restore the targets rage with 10 rage.

                        That means in some situations you actually help the target in question.
                        This part of survival talent's effect I honestly cannot say I've seen it occur on myself, nor have I heard about it working on anyone I've healed with resto. Only way I've seen a heal give +10 rage comes from blessed light (innately), and even that +10 rage sometimes doesn't even occur on group-mates.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Zorich View Post
                          Firstly, thanks for the insightful feedback. Good stuff.

                          I hadn't really considered the 15% DR that Resto gives for 2 rounds. By not taking Survival at all, one could spend 50% of their combats under Resto's DR Buff, once the pesky troops are cleared away and not stealing one's Healing .

                          But here's my next question on that. Is the DR from Resto a base DR, or a secondary DR. What I mean by that is this: I'm currently wearing the IC Medal (18% DR) and have GB Astral L8 (24% DR) and Barrier L3 (7% DR) for a combined 49% Damage Reduction. So if someone's doing 10K Damage to me, that's reduced to 4900K. Simple enough. Now if that DR is stacked onto the 49% total then I'm at 64% and only take 3600 Damage from said attack, but if it's after the fact, then I'm reducing 15% of 5,100, which is only -765, leaving me taking 4,335 Damage.

                          Has anyone tested this? I'm really curious to know. Because if that 15% is really only ~7.5% for someone who's already got about 50% DR, then it's not quite as important compared to it being a modification of the base DR.

                          And back onto Momentum - the more I think about it, it seems like at a high enough level Momentum can make Meteoric Destroyer the Mage's equivalent of the Archer's Armor Piercer. Still not quite as good - but damn nice for WB Battles, and crazy to think of as a non-stop cycler in 3v3 / BG / GB if one can keep up with the Rage to fuel it.

                          Thanks again.
                          As far as I can tell, %-based DR sources DEFINITELY don't stack additively. They either stack situationally (some applying in the damage roll, some applying after the damage roll), or they stack by taking %'s of remaining % (i.e. lv. 9 GB = 27% + LD medallion = 20% of remaining 73% after GB -14.6%- which would give a total of 41.6%DR). Way you can prove this is to go into spire, pop the guardian shield rune (90% DR) and see that you still take damage.

                          My thoughts on meteor: mediocre skill, can't rely on it as heavily as the momentum talent can make it. Only shines when you have a large stat-gap over opponents in GA for damage, but it certainly is a consistent damage-dealer. Also, if the bonus damage procs, you don't gain additional rage like the OP believed, so it certainly does gradually drain your rage. Certainly not the best skill to use on a good knight, nor do I suggest its usage in WB with any frequency.
                          Last edited by SinnedWill; 08-08-2013, 10:19 AM.

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                          • #14
                            For me I refer is Survival. It help in many dueling including mpd. Momentum is also depend on people, whether they like it or not. I didn't use it because I had pve set. I use more of thunderer instead.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SinnedWill View Post
                              This part of survival talent's effect I honestly cannot say I've seen it occur on myself, nor have I heard about it working on anyone I've healed with resto. Only way I've seen a heal give +10 rage comes from blessed light (innately), and even that +10 rage sometimes doesn't even occur on group-mates.
                              Survival 10 rage works i have felt it before i got PVE set often and even after so on others.

                              The Blessing i also always seen works every single time not failed me yet but again thats my luck i guess.

                              Originally posted by SinnedWill View Post
                              As far as I can tell, %-based DR sources DEFINITELY don't stack additively. They either stack situationally (some applying in the damage roll, some applying after the damage roll), or they stack by taking %'s of remaining % (i.e. lv. 9 GB = 27% + LD medallion = 20% of remaining 73% after GB -14.6%- which would give a total of 41.6%DR). Way you can prove this is to go into spire, pop the guardian shield rune (90% DR) and see that you still take damage.

                              My thoughts on meteor: mediocre skill, can't rely on it as heavily as the momentum talent can make it. Only shines when you have a large stat-gap over opponents in GA for damage, but it certainly is a consistent damage-dealer. Also, if the bonus damage procs, you don't gain additional rage like the OP believed, so it certainly does gradually drain your rage. Certainly not the best skill to use on a good knight, nor do I suggest its usage in WB with any frequency.
                              Actually he is right about the rage you get.

                              AS a mage the passive talent gives +2 rage every time you deal damage EVERY time and i have done the math it works.

                              I do RoF the most and like Met its 2 hits but it works like a charm.

                              6 enemies 2 hits = 24 rage = i gain rage. if i used RoF.

                              But its easy to test for me.

                              I start with 21 rage has pve set.

                              I will fight a group of 4 monsters.

                              RoF = 16 rage cost
                              21 - 16 = 5 rage left.
                              5 + 10 from pve set = 15 left <--- now lets see
                              Result after 1 RoF = 31 rage.
                              31 - 15 = 16 rage gained from the hit
                              16 / 4 = 4 rage per unit
                              4 / 2 = 2 hit on each unit which RoF DOES.

                              SO he is right there.

                              Now if MET can hit 3 times per unit i can't say never tested it but lets say it can do 3 hits then i would have gained (3*2)*4 = 24 rage from that 1 hit against 4 targets.

                              So OP is right about your rage gain like it or not.

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