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IRIS Sylph Balance Issues - Critical Heals are Broken.

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  • R29296591
    replied
    Originally posted by Zorich View Post
    I think that's the whole point. Critical is a sacrifice, often of defense, for greatly improved offense. Critical Damage, with Determination of equal-level to that of EWD is significantly more. The question always comes down to how much more often one get a Critical than one does not get a Critical. This determines if one's Critical value is high enough to warrant use over EWD - at least as a Mage when it comes to damage determination.

    Now, Healing is a value that is not affected by EWD, and one can easily argue that Healing is the absolute CORE of the Mage class. By making EWD not affect Heals, but allowing a Critical to affect it, there's no longer a trade off. What it should be is a rational look at how often one can Crit their Heals, and determining if they want the big heal more than they want the consistent heal - which should fall somewhere in between a non-Critical and Critical Heal.

    But let's look at this from you point and examine the numbers. Lets say the total HP loss is closer to 15,000 HP. How much is your normal Resto? Mine is about 40k HP or so. How much is your Critical Resto? Mine is around 80k. So just one Critical Resto completely makes up for more than 2x the initial lost HP. I think that says it all in a very efficient manner.
    i agree to what you say...i have 4k crit (85% chance approx.) i heal critical 1 time in 5 turns. Attacks are 7/10 th critical. i feel 1/5 chance being critical heal is quite fair. And yes critical is better than ewd. @ lvl 5 determination it gives X1.45 damage when crit. whereas will destroyer gives 1.45@ lvl 9. But with critical there cannot be a 100% chance. never.
    Last edited by R29296591; 12-09-2013, 11:28 PM.

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  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by 0xykotton View Post
    Zorich just saying one that corrects grammar online in order to bash the person just really makes your point invalid now. No one likes grammar nazi's just to be grammar nazi. It just ruins your whole point you are trying to give.
    Think whatever you want. He's going to try and play it that way, I'm gonna call him on it.

    "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

    Also, it doesn't by any means invalidate my point. It just shows that I'm not above reciprocation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by R29296591 View Post
    determination with sniper edge...crit using people lose an astral slot.
    crit using people lose 8 gems slots.
    there is no 100% chance that one will crit.

    now there must be some advantage of using critical. because edw can get lot more hp/block whatever.

    EWD if using Briliance(lvl5) and hp gem(lvl 5) gets 10790 hp extra [ignoring soul engraving effect.]
    tell me now why reduce critical heal too / ewd be effective to heal
    I think that's the whole point. Critical is a sacrifice, often of defense, for greatly improved offense. Critical Damage, with Determination of equal-level to that of EWD is significantly more. The question always comes down to how much more often one gets a Critical than one does not get a Critical. This determines if one's Critical value is high enough to warrant use over EWD - at least as a Mage when it comes to damage determination.

    Now, Healing is a value that is not affected by EWD, and one can easily argue that Healing is the absolute CORE of the Mage class. By making EWD not affect Heals, but allowing a Critical to affect it, there's no longer a trade off. What it should be is a rational look at how often one can Crit their Heals, and determining if they want the big heal more than they want the consistent heal - which should fall somewhere in between a non-Critical and Critical Heal.

    But let's look at this from you point and examine the numbers. Lets say the total HP loss is closer to 15,000 HP. How much is your normal Resto? Mine is about 40k HP or so. How much is your Critical Resto? Mine is around 80k. So just one Critical Resto completely makes up for more than 2x the initial lost HP. I think that says it all in a very efficient manner.
    Last edited by Zorich; 12-09-2013, 11:18 PM.

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  • 0xykotton
    replied
    Zorich just saying one that corrects grammar online in order to bash the person just really makes your point invalid now. No one likes grammar nazi's just to be grammar nazi. It just ruins your whole point you are trying to give.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by ArowenGR View Post
    Zorich stop crying.

    Us knights ALL THIS TIME were second choice in any party for mpd. Noone asked for a knight unless a nightmare high level mpd.
    ESPECIALLY after the academy bless when an archer could pretty much tank. When a mages TEMPLAR HP went to infinity 70k+.
    At that time knights were useless.
    Now looks like the mages turn (even though 1 mage is better than an iris, but FINALLY 2 knights can coexist in high level mpd).
    Get over it.
    What's wrong? Don't like being called out contradicting yourself? You've felt weak so now you think it's someone else's time for it?

    I don't know what you're talking about regarding Knights being second class. In my Guild, our 4th highest BR player is a Knight and a very well valued one. Knights have the single highest damage attack in the game! Actually, they have the 2nd highest attack too . And their Apollo on harder hitting bosses is invaluable. And free healing that, over time, is as good as a Sunto in BG / Arena when one's block is high enough.

    Let me guess, you're a camper. Knights get beastly at L74 and up to L80 when they really come into all their skills. Those that sit at 64 / 69 are kinda gimped because they're not quite good enough yet, or at least not well rounded enough in terms of skill levels.

    You've obviously got a hate on for Mages. That's fine, but your bias is extremely evident. Notice at no point have I ever said that Knight's need to be nerfed. I've contested that the Iris is an unbalanced mechanic that needs to be fixed either via a fundamental change in healing - not Iris healing - but game healing. Why would it bother you if EWD affected Heals? Why would it bother you if Crit-Heals were removed? Oh, I know... Because you've finally got a dominant attack pattern and you don't want to lose it . Which I admit I understand.

    But also understand this. Prior to pets, Mage beat Knight beat Archer beat Mage of equal BRs. It was a rock-paper-scissors system in many ways due to abilities and stats. Now it's Knight w/ Iris beat all of equal BR. That's not balance.

    Now I'll address the fun part... You wrote:
    P.S. Learn syntax kiddo. How old are you, 8?
    You do know what syntax is, right? Here's you quote again corrected for grammar:

    Originally posted by ArowenGR View Post
    Zorich, stop crying.

    Us knights, ALL THIS TIME, were second choice in any party for mpd. No one asked for a knight unless (they were running) a nightmare high level mpd.
    ESPECIALLY after the academy bless when an archer could pretty much tank and a mage's TEMPLAR HP went to infinity 70k+. (Two malformed sentences - should be joined by a conjunction)
    At that time knights were useless.
    Now looks like it's the mage's turn (even though 1 mage is better than an iris, but FINALLY 2 knights can coexist in a high level mpd).
    Get over it.
    Seriously dude, I didn't think English was your first language. It's pretty funny, you calling someone out on it. Don't get me wrong - I knew what you were saying, but if this was a 3rd grade English paper, you'd get a serious F. You know, 3rd Grade. Where the 8 year old kids are.

    And funny, I didn't realize that over 70,000 was infinity. Thanks Stephen Hawking!

    PS. Hyperbole server no one.
    PSS. No one is two words.

    Leave a comment:


  • R29296591
    replied
    Originally posted by AnataOFAkku View Post
    Yeah.things will be much different
    If i turn into full crit i have 12.5k pdef, where similar br archer have with full crit 14k+ mdef...and ofc a lot more crit
    Thought so........

    Leave a comment:


  • R29296591
    replied
    Originally posted by CondorHero View Post
    It amazes me how many players in this game either don't know how to read or has a problem comprehending a well-structured argument.

    The point of Zorich's post is either:
    - reduce the chance of critical heal; or
    - let EWD be effective on heal.
    determination with sniper edge...crit using people lose an astral slot.
    crit using people lose 8 gems slots.
    there is no 100% chance that one will crit.

    now there must be some advantage of using critical. because edw can get lot more hp/block whatever.

    EWD if using Briliance(lvl5) and hp gem(lvl 5) gets 10790 hp extra [ignoring soul engraving effect.]
    tell me now why reduce critical heal too / ewd be effective to heal

    Leave a comment:


  • Flame_Ace
    replied
    Originally posted by CondorHero View Post
    It amazes me how many players in this game either don't know how to read or has a problem comprehending a well-structured argument.

    The point of Zorich's post is either:
    - reduce the chance of critical heal; or
    - let EWD be effective on heal.
    Maybe Wartune can just remove the critical heal on sylphs (IRIS or if any healing sylphs in future). Critical heals of archers and crit mage are decent (because archers do normally crit and mages normally heal) For Knights, they will benefit at crit heals of mages on them.

    Leave a comment:


  • SuperMimi
    replied
    Originally posted by CondorHero View Post
    It amazes me how many players in this game either don't know how to read or has a problem comprehending a well-structured argument.

    The point of Zorich's post is either:
    - reduce the chance of critical heal; or
    - let EWD be effective on heal.
    - reduce the chance of critical heal = i think iris heal is 0% crit rate. It depends on the Critical Stat of the player. And I think any class who is not using EWD having 5k-6k critical would crit heal often.

    - let EWD be effective on heal. = That would be a great help on running MPD and TOK. Giving them a huge boost on heal , i don't have any complain with that. It is for the benefits for all of us. ^_^

    Leave a comment:


  • ArowenGR
    replied
    Zorich stop crying.

    Us knights ALL THIS TIME were second choice in any party for mpd. Noone asked for a knight unless a nightmare high level mpd.
    ESPECIALLY after the academy bless when an archer could pretty much tank. When a mages TEMPLAR HP went to infinity 70k+.
    At that time knights were useless.
    Now looks like the mages turn (even though 1 mage is better than an iris, but FINALLY 2 knights can coexist in high level mpd).
    Get over it.

    P.S. Learn syntax kiddo. How old are you, 8?

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by CondorHero View Post
    It amazes me how many players in this game either don't know how to read or has a problem comprehending a well-structured argument.

    The point of Zorich's post is either:
    - reduce the chance of critical heal; or
    - let EWD be effective on heal.
    Thanks bro. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometimes .

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by 0xykotton View Post
    Mages do the same exact thing in arena. Just today i was in arena against 2 mages and a knight. What they do? First HS then non stop healing over and over again. So please don't give me that ** about how Iris is so OP. If mages do the same exact thing in arena. Non stop BL and heals. Then use there iris's to do there heals over and over again.
    Mages are SUPPOSED to do that! They're the only "Healer" class. We don't get the gaudy kill attacks Archers (Delphic Sniper 355% & +20% Critical) and Knights (EDD 430% & +30 Rage Regain) get. We don't even have something remotely comparable to the Knight's weak Delphic (365%)! We get good AoEs (RoF at 165% and Meteor at 167%) and Heals. Our best attack is 320% w/ a Slow Chance that's unreliable and doesn't work in PvP when it triggers. And it can't target a rank like AP or EDD does, so it's not reliable until only 1 target is left. The Mage class has always had the worst DPS, but they made up for it with the ability to Heal and keep their Troops up as barriers w/ Sunto & BL. It generally made us have the advantage vs. Knights, and left us on the short-end vs. Archers - which is balance.

    Now, lets look at the Knights beyond the two best % Damage attacks... We don't get 20% HP Bubbles (The equiv of 30k healing on top-end Knights). We don't get a 30% Damage Reducer, or 4% Max HP Free Heals on every Block. Really watch what a Knight does in combat. Against a 115K Br Knight in my Guild, in a duel, between HP gained from Bubble and Blocks he effectively replenished 70K HP. Heal Rune did another 25K or so. Then he goes Iris and it's 80K+ Crit Heals all over the place, some in excess of 100K - all costing no Rage. He comes out of it, milking the heals as long as possible (80K+ every 15 Sec is hard to overcome, even at 50% boost) with a 100% Buffed EDD. Dead Mage. Period. Total Healing on the Knight's Part - in excess of 400k. This is greatly helped by the 20% innate buff they get on all healing targeting them, making them the best self-healers as an Iris in the game.

    That much healing would cost a Mage well over 200 Rage - so he just can't do it and deal any reasonable damage to his target. And in case you didn't know, Mages regain rage slower than any other class.

    And an Archer... Well, if I had a 35 Rage, Fast Cast, 200% Damage + Defense Debuff w/ a 1s CD and a 255% Attack that doled out a 30% Damage Debuff on my enemy, well, I wouldn't need much more than a Bloodthirsty Strike by way of healing - which incidentally, against troops of an equal-BR type opponent, restores as much as a Resto does. Archers pump out so much fast damage vs. equal BR Mages, that if the Mage doesn't Heal / Sunto, he won't make it to the awakening .

    Now, Archers with their innate Critical % Boosts get Crit-Heals more often than anyone when they manifest Iris. As a Mage going Crit-Spec, I can't get within a 1000 Pts of the Critical of an Archer w/ the same BR as me. So again, when manifesting Iris, Archers make better group Healers than Mages do.

    I don't want to take away healing from the Iris. It's good for other classes to spec that way if they want (who wouldn't?). But what I would like is a more balanced playing field in it's use and application.

    Leave a comment:


  • CondorHero
    replied
    It amazes me how many players in this game either don't know how to read or has a problem comprehending a well-structured argument.

    The point of Zorich's post is either:
    - reduce the chance of critical heal; or
    - let EWD be effective on heal.

    Leave a comment:


  • 0xykotton
    replied
    Mages do the same exact thing in arena. Just today i was in arena against 2 mages and a knight. What they do? First HS then non stop healing over and over again. So please don't give me that ** about how Iris is so OP. If mages do the same exact thing in arena. Non stop BL and heals. Then use there iris's to do there heals over and over again.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by ArowenGR View Post
    Learn to read before getting that attitude kiddo.
    Never said pve is balanced. I said will keep same balance.
    That is knights being second choices in most mpds and having to beg for a team. Only one top and people bragged that knights are unimportant in pve.
    What's your class? Archer? Mage?
    You're the hypocrite, and rude, cause all the other things I wanna say to you will get me banned from thi forum.

    Kiddo. Child. Baby.
    I'll quote you back to yourself:
    Why the fuss?
    Archers/knights get BL and an extra aoe, mages get (unscatterable) apollo shield.

    Pve balance is the same (except that knights and archers can also help heal/puri).
    Pve is equally balanced.
    Firstly, you casually left off that Iris gives not only BL and 1 Extra AoE. It ALSO gives a 2nd AoE (w/ a built in Puri), Single-Target Heal (that's 10% better than Resto) AND Puri.

    Does all that really not outweigh a 3-round Apollo? Now maybe if we, as Mage's, got exactly what we lacked as the Iris gives Archer / Knights, that'd be different.

    What would you say to a Pet that gave AoE Enemy DeBuff, 100% 3-Round Slow Attack, a single-target 250% Damage Attack with a 35% Damage Debuff, a 250% AoE that Stuns and a Delphic that's 350% along with a 15% Crit Buff Passive and a 15% HP Gain?

    Or how about a Pet that does a Rage Drain of 50, Has a 25% HP Bubble, Has 40% DR, Has a 165% AoE w/ Bleed and a 450% Delphic along with passives of 15% on Healing Received and 15% of HP Gain?

    If either of these existed, the respective classes they mimic would be in an uproar. Why? Because they'd so perfectly mimic the uniqueness of those classes it would take away what it is they are. If I, as a Mage, could go into some Archer-like pet that lets me Slow, Debuff, Stun and Delphic as well as get the passive bonuses, wouldn't that be fairly silly? Well, that's what the Iris did. Just look:
    • Warm Spring = Restoration w/ an extra +10% Healing. Same Cooldown. Spirit Well Passive adds DR to this.
    • Rain Dance = Blessed Light. Same Cooldown.
    • Tsunami = Rain of Fire w/ a free single-target Puri thrown in. Same Cooldown.
    • Ice Armor = Purification w/o the limit of 3 Debuffs per Ally. Same Cooldown.
    • Archeron Wave = Delphic Hell Thunder. Same Cooldown. Master of Water Passive adds Stun effect to this.
    • Passive Ocean Mirror = Healing Boost from Healing Empowerment.


    So tell me, what's left off that was signature Mage? Suntoria. 1 Skill. You got a better version of our single-target heal, AoE Heal, Purification, base AoE and Delphic AoE. FANtastic! That's what Mages are now in PvE. They're there for Sunto and maybe an initial Resto / BL before the Archers & Knights can start rotating Iris awakenings.

    Leave a comment:

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