IRIS Sylph Balance Issues - Critical Heals are Broken.

[SuperMimi]

It amazes me how many players in this game either don't know how to read or has a problem comprehending a well-structured argument.

The point of Zorich's post is either:
- reduce the chance of critical heal; or
- let EWD be effective on heal.

- reduce the chance of critical heal = i think iris heal is 0% crit rate. It depends on the Critical Stat of the player. And I think any class who is not using EWD having 5k-6k critical would crit heal often.

- let EWD be effective on heal. = That would be a great help on running MPD and TOK. Giving them a huge boost on heal , i don't have any complain with that. It is for the benefits for all of us. ^_^

[Flame_Ace]

It amazes me how many players in this game either don't know how to read or has a problem comprehending a well-structured argument.

The point of Zorich's post is either:
- reduce the chance of critical heal; or
- let EWD be effective on heal.

Maybe Wartune can just remove the critical heal on sylphs (IRIS or if any healing sylphs in future). Critical heals of archers and crit mage are decent (because archers do normally crit and mages normally heal) For Knights, they will benefit at crit heals of mages on them.

[Hot Shot]

It amazes me how many players in this game either don't know how to read or has a problem comprehending a well-structured argument.

The point of Zorich's post is either:
- reduce the chance of critical heal; or
- let EWD be effective on heal.

determination with sniper edge...crit using people lose an astral slot.
crit using people lose 8 gems slots.
there is no 100% chance that one will crit.

now there must be some advantage of using critical. because edw can get lot more hp/block whatever.

EWD if using Briliance(lvl5) and hp gem(lvl 5) gets 10790 hp extra [ignoring soul engraving effect.]
tell me now why reduce critical heal too / ewd be effective to heal

[Hot Shot]

Yeah.things will be much different
If i turn into full crit i have 12.5k pdef, where similar br archer have with full crit 14k+ mdef...and ofc a lot more crit

Thought so........

[Zorich]

Zorich stop crying.

Us knights ALL THIS TIME were second choice in any party for mpd. Noone asked for a knight unless a nightmare high level mpd.
ESPECIALLY after the academy bless when an archer could pretty much tank. When a mages TEMPLAR HP went to infinity 70k+.
At that time knights were useless.
Now looks like the mages turn (even though 1 mage is better than an iris, but FINALLY 2 knights can coexist in high level mpd).
Get over it.

What's wrong? Don't like being called out contradicting yourself? You've felt weak so now you think it's someone else's time for it?

I don't know what you're talking about regarding Knights being second class. In my Guild, our 4th highest BR player is a Knight and a very well valued one. Knights have the single highest damage attack in the game! Actually, they have the 2nd highest attack too . And their Apollo on harder hitting bosses is invaluable. And free healing that, over time, is as good as a Sunto in BG / Arena when one's block is high enough.

Let me guess, you're a camper. Knights get beastly at L74 and up to L80 when they really come into all their skills. Those that sit at 64 / 69 are kinda gimped because they're not quite good enough yet, or at least not well rounded enough in terms of skill levels.

You've obviously got a hate on for Mages. That's fine, but your bias is extremely evident. Notice at no point have I ever said that Knight's need to be nerfed. I've contested that the Iris is an unbalanced mechanic that needs to be fixed either via a fundamental change in healing - not Iris healing - but game healing. Why would it bother you if EWD affected Heals? Why would it bother you if Crit-Heals were removed? Oh, I know... Because you've finally got a dominant attack pattern and you don't want to lose it . Which I admit I understand.

But also understand this. Prior to pets, Mage beat Knight beat Archer beat Mage of equal BRs. It was a rock-paper-scissors system in many ways due to abilities and stats. Now it's Knight w/ Iris beat all of equal BR. That's not balance.

Now I'll address the fun part... You wrote:

P.S. Learn syntax kiddo. How old are you, 8?

You do know what syntax is, right? Here's you quote again corrected for grammar:

Zorich, stop crying.

Us knights, ALL THIS TIME, were second choice in any party for mpd. No one asked for a knight unless (they were running) a nightmare high level mpd.
ESPECIALLY after the academy bless when an archer could pretty much tank and a mage's TEMPLAR HP went to infinity 70k+. (Two malformed sentences - should be joined by a conjunction)
At that time knights were useless.
Now looks like it's the mage's turn (even though 1 mage is better than an iris, but FINALLY 2 knights can coexist in a high level mpd).
Get over it.

Seriously dude, I didn't think English was your first language. It's pretty funny, you calling someone out on it. Don't get me wrong - I knew what you were saying, but if this was a 3rd grade English paper, you'd get a serious F. You know, 3rd Grade. Where the 8 year old kids are.

And funny, I didn't realize that over 70,000 was infinity. Thanks Stephen Hawking!

PS. Hyperbole server no one.
PSS. No one is two words.

[0xykotton]

Zorich just saying one that corrects grammar online in order to bash the person just really makes your point invalid now. No one likes grammar nazi's just to be grammar nazi. It just ruins your whole point you are trying to give.

[Zorich]

determination with sniper edge...crit using people lose an astral slot.
crit using people lose 8 gems slots.
there is no 100% chance that one will crit.

now there must be some advantage of using critical. because edw can get lot more hp/block whatever.

EWD if using Briliance(lvl5) and hp gem(lvl 5) gets 10790 hp extra [ignoring soul engraving effect.]
tell me now why reduce critical heal too / ewd be effective to heal

I think that's the whole point. Critical is a sacrifice, often of defense, for greatly improved offense. Critical Damage, with Determination of equal-level to that of EWD is significantly more. The question always comes down to how much more often one gets a Critical than one does not get a Critical. This determines if one's Critical value is high enough to warrant use over EWD - at least as a Mage when it comes to damage determination.

Now, Healing is a value that is not affected by EWD, and one can easily argue that Healing is the absolute CORE of the Mage class. By making EWD not affect Heals, but allowing a Critical to affect it, there's no longer a trade off. What it should be is a rational look at how often one can Crit their Heals, and determining if they want the big heal more than they want the consistent heal - which should fall somewhere in between a non-Critical and Critical Heal.

But let's look at this from you point and examine the numbers. Lets say the total HP loss is closer to 15,000 HP. How much is your normal Resto? Mine is about 40k HP or so. How much is your Critical Resto? Mine is around 80k. So just one Critical Resto completely makes up for more than 2x the initial lost HP. I think that says it all in a very efficient manner.

[Zorich]

Zorich just saying one that corrects grammar online in order to bash the person just really makes your point invalid now. No one likes grammar nazi's just to be grammar nazi. It just ruins your whole point you are trying to give.

Think whatever you want. He's going to try and play it that way, I'm gonna call him on it.

"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

Also, it doesn't by any means invalidate my point. It just shows that I'm not above reciprocation.

[Hot Shot]

I think that's the whole point. Critical is a sacrifice, often of defense, for greatly improved offense. Critical Damage, with Determination of equal-level to that of EWD is significantly more. The question always comes down to how much more often one get a Critical than one does not get a Critical. This determines if one's Critical value is high enough to warrant use over EWD - at least as a Mage when it comes to damage determination.

Now, Healing is a value that is not affected by EWD, and one can easily argue that Healing is the absolute CORE of the Mage class. By making EWD not affect Heals, but allowing a Critical to affect it, there's no longer a trade off. What it should be is a rational look at how often one can Crit their Heals, and determining if they want the big heal more than they want the consistent heal - which should fall somewhere in between a non-Critical and Critical Heal.

But let's look at this from you point and examine the numbers. Lets say the total HP loss is closer to 15,000 HP. How much is your normal Resto? Mine is about 40k HP or so. How much is your Critical Resto? Mine is around 80k. So just one Critical Resto completely makes up for more than 2x the initial lost HP. I think that says it all in a very efficient manner.

i agree to what you say...i have 4k crit (85% chance approx.) i heal critical 1 time in 5 turns. Attacks are 7/10 th critical. i feel 1/5 chance being critical heal is quite fair. And yes critical is better than ewd. @ lvl 5 determination it gives X1.45 damage when crit. whereas will destroyer gives 1.45@ lvl 9. But with critical there cannot be a 100% chance. never.

[Zorich]

i agree to what you say...i have 4k crit (85% chance approx.) i heal critical 1 time in 5 turns. Attacks are 7/10 th critical. i feel 1/5 chance being critical heal is quite fair.

Yeah, at that rate it's not crazy. Don't know if you've run into an Archer yet with 6500+ Crit that goes Iris and 2/3 Heals are Crits for ludicrous amounts of HP. That really gets me. Although, the worst was a Knight that Crit-BL'd himself w/ the Iris for 120,000 HP when I had him maybe 5k HP from done. You just wanna throw up your hands at that point and scream, "what the ****."

[Hot Shot]

Yeah, at that rate it's not crazy. Don't know if you've run into an Archer yet with 6500+ Crit that goes Iris and 2/3 Heals are Crits for ludicrous amounts of HP. That really gets me. Although, the worst was a Knight that Crit-BL'd himself w/ the Iris for 120,000 HP when I had him maybe 5k HP from done. You just wanna throw up your hands at that point and scream, "what the ****."

its quite an issue then lol

[pjraven]

Took 9 months to get mage able to bl, now you can do it in 4 weeks with sylph, and lots of cash. I've lost interest in this game since 2.1 and sylphs were added. Mages are no longer needed in this game, as a matter of fact why bother building your character, when a 4 week old sylph can kill your character that took a year to build. This thread is pointless, does anyone think R2 is listening to its customers.....

I've seen pet addons ruin other games, and it has done so here as well. Thanks R2 for the one year I did enjoy playing this game.

[Stormsiren]

Hello All,As a Mage, I find the current use of Iris (by Archers in-particular) quite offensive.

As a mage I find having access to both Blessed light and Rain dance offensive, there nothing stopping you using sniper's edge and determination stop whining I use both.

[xnovaflarex]

Why the fuss?
Archers/knights get BL and an extra aoe, mages get (unscatterable) apollo shield.

Pve balance is the same (except that knights and archers can also help heal/puri).
Pve is equally balanced. Pvp has gotten more interesting. Now there is no universally strong sylph, all have strengths and weaknesses.

Aren't mages better suited to deal with iris and apollo cause of high MDEF? The 2 strongest (maybe) sylph are not very effective vs mages but destroy knights and archers.
Mages also got an extra MATK delphic pvp skill that whips knights and archers but they are not happy. Why? Because they prefer Pan since it is better in class wars.

Now is not about class and not about sylph.
Each combination of class and skill has different strengths and weaknesses

I agree sylphs through a huge monkey wrench in to the work. Changed up every thing and for the better imo. Previous equal br knights always lost to mages with out exception 90+ % of the time unless the mage hit the wrong skill. Now knights stand a decent chance against equal br mages. Now knights have a heal that can be used more than once or twice. In best case you might get 2x uses of heal rune even if you had 3 uses. Now you can get 2x heal rune plus say maybe 3 iris warm spring heals for total of 5 heals. Mages can still get tons more healing but knights have more hp. Theres more balance now then before. Mages are just to use to being abble to step away from their comp and let their base attack kill a knight. I know i know never really quite that bad but you get the idea.

[Zorich]

As a mage I find having access to both Blessed light and Rain dance offensive, there nothing stopping you using sniper's edge and determination stop whining I use both.

No, there's nothing stopping me from converting to a Critical build. However, there's no passive bonus for a Mage that make's an Archer's Crit so much more effective with Rain Dance. And, a Mage can't match the DPS of an equal BR Archer. And all Knights self-heal at a 20% passive bonus as well. So while a Mage can still heal more by using their Rage & Class Skills w/ the Iris - our Healing is still the least efficient of all classes and our DPS is the worst as well.

And again, I don't get how this is whining. I've back up all my statements with relevant statistical examples, showing that the Mage is far out of balance right now.

And again, this is right now. It might change as new pets come out. If the Lightning Pet is as offensive as ppl are saying, then we'll just have the Archers and Knights use Iris in MP and be the Healers while we get the Lightning Pet and take care of Slows and insane DPS. It'll be kinda silly though that everyone's best aspect of their character will be their Pet and not the class itself...