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IRIS Sylph Balance Issues - Critical Heals are Broken.

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  • SuperMimi
    replied
    Originally posted by Zorich View Post
    Hello All,

    As a Mage, I find the current use of Iris (by Archers in-particular) quite offensive. Their innate Critical Boost and baseline Critical Spec makes their use of Iris almost ludicrous. I have fought Archers that are healing themselves for 100,000+ HP with Critical Iris Heals. Some Knights, with their Innate Boost on Healing Received are self-Healing w/ Iris for over 120,000 HP. This is absolutely ludicrous! Not only has it made battling them about as close to a no-win as one can get, it's also completely removed the need for Mages in PvE. When 3 Archers w/ Iris Sylphs can do Lych Lair by themselves, something is wrong.

    Healing, for ANY class, should NOT be subject to Critical Hits - and if it IS to remain so, I would petition that Will Destroyer ALSO affect Healing. Critical Healing via Iris is forcing every Mage to change over to Critical Builds in hopes they can equal what an Archer does and get lucky with a Big Heal to stay in a fight longer. Unfortunately, Mages don't get the Critical Boost, so they can never really match them.

    So I'd like to request one or more of the 3 following things to balance this:
    • Remove Critical Hits from Healing Spells, OR
    • Allow Will Destroyer Astral(s) to affect Healing AND Add a Critical Enhancement Talent in place of Misfortune (who NO ONE uses) so that a Mage can gain innate Critical %. (Keeping both Will Destroyer and Critical Paths viable for Mages) OR
    • Update the Mage Skill Healing Empowerment from 4% / 8% (pointlessly low now) to 35% / 70%


    I feel one of these three are necessary because it used to be that Mages did the least damage, but at least we were the best healers. Now we do the least damage _and_ we're effectively the worst healers when confronted w/ an Archer or Knight w/ an Iris Sylph. It ain't right.
    *Remove Critical Heal = You feel that it is slap on the face that archer can heal more than mage? Why not switching to critical mage? I've seen alot of crit mage on my server. If you can't , just accept it and stop whining. That Critical Heal will surely help you and your party in near future.

    *Allow Will Destroyer Astral(s) to affect Healing AND Add a Critical Enhancement Talent in place of Misfortune (who NO ONE uses) so that a Mage can gain innate Critical %. (Keeping both Will Destroyer and Critical Paths viable for Mages) = It will be a great help for every party on Multiplayer Dungeon. Anyway , i've notice that this issue is all about Will Destroyer Class Type To Critical Type Class? Try to analyze it dude, Mage using Iris Againts Crit Archer or Knight Using Iris. Who will heal alot and who will deal a great damage. Seek for your self.

    Anyway this is your advantage using will destroyer astral.
    - Using Will Destroyer can save you 1 slot astral. While Critical Type You need to Equip Sniper Edge and Enhance Determination astral at the same time.

    *Update the Mage Skill Healing Empowerment from 4% / 8% (pointlessly low now) to 35% / 70% = if it will help everyone why not running MPD , why not?.
    Last edited by SuperMimi; 12-08-2013, 07:12 PM. Reason: error

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  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by ArowenGR View Post
    Why the fuss?
    Archers/knights get BL and an extra aoe, mages get (unscatterable) apollo shield.

    Pve balance is the same (except that knights and archers can also help heal/puri).
    Pve is equally balanced. Pvp has gotten more interesting. Now there is no universally strong sylph, all have strengths and weaknesses.

    It's funny that you seem to think that PvE is "Balanced." So many Archers were screaming and railing at the hint of the Mire Rune - "Oh, we're going to never get in PvE groups again! Archers are useless!" - yet it's just fine and balanced that an Archer or Knight can now Single Target Heal (via Iris), AoE Heal (via Iris) and Puri (via Iris), and that's just fine.

    The hypocrisy amazes me.

    Aren't mages better suited to deal with iris and apollo cause of high MDEF? The 2 strongest (maybe) sylph are not very effective vs mages but destroy knights and archers.
    Mages also got an extra MATK delphic pvp skill that whips knights and archers but they are not happy. Why? Because they prefer Pan since it is better in class wars.

    Now is not about class and not about sylph.
    Each combination of class and skill has different strengths and weaknesses
    I don't know about most Mages, but I use the Iris in PvP. Rage-Free Healing is the best thing in the game IMO. Yeah, I can take an Apollo or Iris Delphc and heal it away in a few seconds. No biggie. Pan is a little tougher for me, but I can withstand it. What I have problems with is...

    Archer / Knight Transforms at < 50% HP and me relatively full w/ troops still up. Warm Spring Crit-Heal for 100,000 HP - they're full. Delphic - doesn't do a ton to me, but clears my troops 1 shot now that we just ticked into 50%. AoE Heal to top off any damage I may have done. Oh look, another Warm Spring.

    All I can do once that transform happens is start buffing and getting rage up. Sunto, LB, LB, LB - oh wait, there's the symbol to de-transform, Quick Resto to give me the 15% DR buff and Transform, and wait for the PAtk Delphic to try and drop me. If I survive, I can get a Warm Spring off, buy myself a round and Delphic Back. Followed by Rain and Spring again. But more often than not, at that 50% mark, the big hits end it. Those 120K Crit Delphic Snipers and EDDs are a bit much to overcome.

    IMO, Holy Seal is the MOST important skill right now. Because the _second_ any Mage sees an Archer or Knight with an Iris Transform - he should be dropping Seal like a madman.

    Leave a comment:


  • JkLoser87
    replied
    Think most people that aren't playing a mage is missing, cause they say "You can use iris as well" is that Iris doesn't benefit us. 1vs1 we are the worse class, mages sucks. and basicly if we had iris, we would be on the same point as a archer or knight, but 1vs1, meaning we are dead.

    Leave a comment:


  • CondorHero
    replied
    Originally posted by Zorich View Post
    But the AoE Heal isn't a Delphic. There's no "S" on it indicating a Super-Skills. I haven't tested it out though. Perhaps I will today.
    Delphic-esque.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by CondorHero View Post
    Any delphic (60second CD) doesn't reset on re-awaken.
    The timer is still ticking in the background when you cancel the awaken and re-awaken.
    But the AoE Heal isn't a Delphic. There's no "S" on it indicating a Super-Skills. I haven't tested it out though. Perhaps I will today.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by TjiTzUr View Post
    *** are u at with huge amount of rage its only cost 60 rage for almost a half hp heal so tell me 1 more time if it cost much with ur 3 aoe attack to max 3rage
    How much damage will you do with 2 APs vs. a Mage of equal BR? I'm at 120K BR, and I take, before the 50% Bonus kicks in, 28k - 35k Damage per shot from AP from a fairly equal BR Archer. And APs cast fast - two can be fired off in the time it takes to cast a BL. That's 56k - 70k Damage done to me in the time it takes me to get off a 42k - 48k HP BL. Now tell me if you REALLY think it's that over-powered... I haven't run BL in my skills list for PvP in over 3 months. It's too slow and too expensive. Always has been. It's only good in 3v3, Guild Battle and PvE.

    Leave a comment:


  • CondorHero
    replied
    Originally posted by Zorich View Post
    60s - Same as BL. And I believe it will reset the timer on re-awaken, and has no delay like a delphic on awaken.
    Any delphic (60second CD) doesn't reset on re-awaken.
    The timer is still ticking in the background when you cancel the awaken and re-awaken.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by MaccteN001 View Post
    What is the cooldown of rain dance vs BL? Anyone knows?
    60s - Same as BL. And I believe it will reset the timer on re-awaken, and has no delay like a delphic on awaken.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zorich
    replied
    Originally posted by ArowenGR View Post
    When a knight or an archer complained about BL being OP, mages laughed.
    When mages ruled mid to high BG because of all the heals (suntoria/restoration/BL), mages said "everything is ok, get your toon fixed".
    Mages are still better healers in pve (their skills don't need the transform time) BUT they did lose their HUGE advantage in pvp.
    So in a (bizzarre) way, this OP skill balanced pvp.
    And I didn't hear you complain about the unscatterable apollo shield that Pan provides.

    Iris rain dance IS OP, but so is BL.
    Wrong - individuals may have laughed, but actual mature gamers recognized the balances. As a Mage myself, I don't know where the whole OP even began. Truthfully. Compared to an Archer, you realize that AP and Resto are the same rage cost. AP does 200% Atk Damage while Resto Heals 75% Atk in HP, and AP has an immediate CD and regains rage w/ Crits. BL is 60 Rage, 60s CD and heals 135% w/ the QTE, 143% w/ the Passive Healing Buff. And Heals don't get better at 50% | 100% | etc.. markers like damage does. My BL does not heal an equal amount of Damage done by a Delphic Sniper, even before 50% kicks in. At 50% I'm lucky if it takes care of half - vs. an equal BR Archer.

    Against an equal BR Archer, a Mage who heals often loses. You have to hope to power through the troops 1st and have enough Rage for a Thunderer or two, maybe w/ a Rage Rune. And the worst is when the Archer gets the Crit-Bloodthirsty on your troops 3rd round and heals themselves for 25,000+ HP. My Resto heals me for about 30k-35k, and that's with talents pumping it up.

    Knight are a different story. Vs. Knights the Heals were often the difference, simply because you could outlast them, and Knights took a while to get through troops. Now, all a Knight needs to do is hold on until their Iris wakes up, Crit-Heal for 120K HP, Delphic to clear troops, and they're basically in a new fight w/ nothing blocking the big-hits. Come out of Sylph, 50% EDD for 70k+ Damage. Knight already have the single most damaging attack in the game with EDD, and now because of their innate 20% Self-Healing buff & use of Iris, they're also the best self HEALERS in the game. Ask any Archer if they can take an equal BR Knight w/ an Iris. The answer is a resounding no. And guess what... A Mage can't take a knight anymore either, and they already were at a great disadvantage vs. Archers.

    The only hope for Mage is that the Lightning Sylph is as broken as people are reporting w/ 2 MAtks at over 200% Damage and a Delphic in the mid 300s with chances to stun. 3 Shots at 50% that do in excess of 200K Damage combined will at least negate the ludicrous heals from Iris, and the potential of stuns could tip the scales.

    As for the unscatterable Pan Shield. I haven't experienced it yet, so I can't really say much for or against it. Do we know if it sticks around if one transforms out of Sylph? If it does, that could be nice, but even at 40% Damage Reduction for 3 turns, you're saving yourself 50k - 75k in damage assuming all 3 attacks are good ones. Iris can Warm Spring, Rain Dance, Delphic, Warm Spring in 4 actions for as much as 300,000+ HP in Healing. So the two are absolutely not comparable. And again, that healing drains NO RAGE. It's broken.

    Leave a comment:


  • ArowenGR
    replied
    Originally posted by Draggyy View Post
    yes we have scatter and apollo but, apollo is not as effective on mages because we are the class with the lowest hp, as for scatter yes, only for pve and if you have money to buy it. Never met someone who uses scatter in pvp for anything else except for suntoria, and suntoria is the only thing sylph didn't gave you.
    In pvp yes, for now the strongest is matk but you do forget an aspect of the game, mages hides behind troops, troops which are jsut lvl 50 thier for now and that has low mdef. Lets say a mage battles an archer/knight all with apollo which is so weak against mages, the knights/archers uses aoe, awaken , and the 2 aoe spells then unsylph. what just happened? it became a 1 vs 1 battle! no troops, and the archer/knight are building their rage for their ultimate which shall probably come after the 50% boost.
    What I am trying to say is that apollo is not used to kill the mage but to clear his walls (troops) after which they can 1 hit the mage with delphic, and no, we can't kill them before the 50% boost We dont have the aoe advantage anymore because now the troops can be cleared fast by everyone.

    p.s. I talked from a bg point of view since that si the place where we usually battle, and people can come with the sylph prepared to be awakened
    When the knights had to deal with 70+ HP templars, you mages were laughing.
    Mages can't be the OP class forever

    Leave a comment:


  • Draggyy
    replied
    Originally posted by ArowenGR View Post
    Why the fuss?
    Archers/knights get BL and an extra aoe, mages get (unscatterable) apollo shield.

    Pve balance is the same (except that knights and archers can also help heal/puri).
    Pve is equally balanced. Pvp has gotten more interesting. Now there is no universally strong sylph, all have strengths and weaknesses.

    Aren't mages better suited to deal with iris and apollo cause of high MDEF? The 2 strongest (maybe) sylph are not very effective vs mages but destroy knights and archers.
    Mages also got an extra MATK delphic pvp skill that whips knights and archers but they are not happy. Why? Because they prefer Pan since it is better in class wars.

    Now is not about class and not about sylph.
    Each combination of class and skill has different strengths and weaknesses
    yes we have scatter and apollo but, apollo is not as effective on mages because we are the class with the lowest hp, as for scatter yes, only for pve and if you have money to buy it. Never met someone who uses scatter in pvp for anything else except for suntoria, and suntoria is the only thing sylph didn't gave you.
    In pvp yes, for now the strongest is matk but you do forget an aspect of the game, mages hides behind troops, troops which are jsut lvl 50 thier for now and that has low mdef. Lets say a mage battles an archer/knight all with apollo which is so weak against mages, the knights/archers uses aoe, awaken , and the 2 aoe spells then unsylph. what just happened? it became a 1 vs 1 battle! no troops, and the archer/knight are building their rage for their ultimate which shall probably come after the 50% boost.
    What I am trying to say is that apollo is not used to kill the mage but to clear his walls (troops) after which they can 1 hit the mage with delphic, and no, we can't kill them before the 50% boost We dont have the aoe advantage anymore because now the troops can be cleared fast by everyone.

    p.s. I talked from a bg point of view since that si the place where we usually battle, and people can come with the sylph prepared to be awakened

    Leave a comment:


  • R28388225
    replied
    knights and archers even with iris or apollo its hard to kill a mage with a high mdef, and mage use iris or apollo to increase their matk... of course a mage with iris which has the heal area and with their suntoria are inkillable...

    Leave a comment:


  • JkLoser87
    replied
    Mages = Have heals, we need apollo
    Knights = massive hp, take iris, and if you die, you have built your char wrong!
    Archers = Take iris, and if you don't rule the game, you have built your char so bad!

    I would like to see either that crit base is taken from the sylph only, or that heals can't be crit.

    Leave a comment:


  • senadbasic
    replied
    1 bl to counter first brut+lunatic/whirlwind was fine even if lunatic/whirlwind still have better cd...but now Apollo 2 aoe u might even die than if they don't switch to normal form and Delphic us.Mages are squishy and Templars are only thing that stands between us and huge amount of dmg from archer/knight delph or similar.
    And totally agree with previous comments.... rain of dance from iris no rage consume plus much more % heal than bl,and its crazy what archers do to us with Apollo aoe(as I said mages are squishy would gladly trade %mdef passive for %pdef passive better counter 2 classes than 1,plus no 20%hp passive like those 2 classes)

    Leave a comment:


  • ArowenGR
    replied
    Why the fuss?
    Archers/knights get BL and an extra aoe, mages get (unscatterable) apollo shield.

    Pve balance is the same (except that knights and archers can also help heal/puri).
    Pve is equally balanced. Pvp has gotten more interesting. Now there is no universally strong sylph, all have strengths and weaknesses.

    Aren't mages better suited to deal with iris and apollo cause of high MDEF? The 2 strongest (maybe) sylph are not very effective vs mages but destroy knights and archers.
    Mages also got an extra MATK delphic pvp skill that whips knights and archers but they are not happy. Why? Because they prefer Pan since it is better in class wars.

    Now is not about class and not about sylph.
    Each combination of class and skill has different strengths and weaknesses

    Leave a comment:

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