A Balance Discussion

[IcarS69]

Then again your obviously lying because your claiming you have 10k less patt then people on your server, and then claiming your so pro. Have fun trying to prove your above bloodthristy strike.

[HELLRAlSER]

Then again your obviously lying because your claiming you have 10k less patt then people on your server, and then claiming your so pro. Have fun trying to prove your above bloodthristy strike.

In fact i have 13k less patt than the rank1. You see i started 6month after server started. Still manage to get in top 3 wb ez. Thats how [s]good[/s] noob i am.

As i said i will provide pictures to my claims, that is in how much trouble am willing to get into to get this f**** discussion going.

edit: Btw i never said BTS have no merits at all in pve, but 0 in pvp.

[GingerTheHutt]

Edit: Oh i recognize the name! I remeber you killing me on 59camps! You was so strong back then. You always with that creamysauce dude. Met you guys recently and murder you np np.

*CreamySaucy lass.

Well our BR's are similar. So... based on the assumption, that the 3rd member of our team will have been weaker than us, and that your team more than likely HS'd us... it's not surprising you won.

[HELLRAlSER]

*CreamySaucy lass.

Well our BR's are similar. So... based on the assumption, that the 3rd member of our team will have been weaker than us, and that your team more than likely HS'd us... it's not surprising you won.

Didnt even had to HS'ed you. But don't feel bad, i am the last boss to beat on a game. 6months 0 cash.

In all fairness, the 3rd member of ur party, was not that strong.

[HELLRAlSER]

agreed a % increase in a stat is AMAZING the stronger you build your character the better this passive gets for you

Not this one, this one its exactly the opposite when facing guardian angel. The more crit you the more you have wasted. what if you have 1billion crit? Still is 50% chance to crit vs a GA.

Edit: GB be back soon, for more details and answers to posts.

[Zorich]

I will post now a series of buff/nerfs, and justify why.

Archer

Eye of the Eagle.
-Max hp increase, reduced to 8/16% from 10/20%
-Max pdef and max mdef increased by 3/6%
-Remove the +20% crit increase. Add +20% chance your attack to be a 100% crit. <-- MOST IMPORTANT BUFF
Justification: Archers have the lowest survivability from the 3 classes, yes even from mages. First 2 points are a small buff, cause they have a tiny heal and bigger hp pools than they need. MOST importantely this actually gives merit to having crit (ya sometimes am so frustrated i want to go WD on my archer) at the first place. As it currently stands, all archers are FORCED to go crit build and they get royally !@$!@ by guardian angel astral. I suggest to remove the increase to crit from eye of the eagle and replace it with a 20% chance to crit. Therefor GA will STILL reduce archer crit rate but not the point where all your gems/refines/astrals equal to 1 Will destroyer, actually no, its even less than 1 will destroyer cause you don't even have rage.

I would argue that Mage has the worst survivability now. I've seen Archers heal 40k+ w/ Bloodthirsty off my troops (About the same as my Resto - and his attack does damage as well). I've seen 30k+ Heal Runes. Archers get an Innate 20% HP Bonus that a Mage doesn't, and if they use an Iris (I would) they're by far the best Crit-Healers via that. For a Mage to be able to deal enough damage to clear troops in 3 turns, they often have to carry 2 AoE, which means either no Sunto, no Resto or no Thunderer. BL isn't really a great option outside of group PvP / PvE.

But that being said, I would give Archers HP increase of 5%/10% instead of the 10%/20%, but they should also get a 5%/10% PDef increase since they're traditionally lightly armored. MDef doesn't fit unless you start talking class specialties down the road.

Delphic Death Star
-Increase possible targets from 2-4 to 2-6.
Justification: Archers gets the least rage and this skills demands 100rage, and stilll is extremely unreliable with hilarious low damage for the sacrifice it demands (100 rage). I suggest this change so it makes sense to even skilling it. You still get a chance to get screwed (2 targets but not as much as u get more opportunities to get something 2+)

Bloodthirsty Strike
-Qte hp heal increased from 10% to 20%
Justification: Again, this skill is hillarious, apart of having "weird" maths (that i finally decoded), +10% increase of a very low amount of heal while deals very low amount of damage? Only place where this is of any use is in BG if you are massively dominating everyone there, and that if you are not vip9 and u actually care about losing honor. Practically it has no use as it is now.

I'd say just make DDS full AoE and reduce the Stun Rate to 20%. Still twice as good as Delphic Hell Thunder, but not quite so ridiculous as 50%.

Archer Talents:

Scrutiny:
-Fix it to NOT overwrite determination astral.
Justification: Seriously archers have a talent that NOONE is skilling, they rather have points sitting there than putting them into this.

Fury: Make it last 2 rounds as described on tool tip or fix tooltip!

Every class has useless talents. Some even hurt you IMO. You could make a whole post unto itself about fixing Talents, so I'm not going to get into those here.

Knight

Reverse damage
From 800 damage reflected to 3% damage taken + 200/300/400 damage.
*procs only if u are still alive after damage is taken
Duration: From 10 at all levels to 4/6/8 turns
Justification: Yes this is a buff to knights, but the skill have no sense to be used as u progress in game. At this form is a nice skill and properly balanced, with a scalling that makes sense.

Intercept
-From 40 rage at all levels to 20/30/40
Justification: This skill is insanely strong at lvl1 even, its so strong that some ppl dont even skill it pass lvl1 so it remains faster without qte. Make it have a point to be lvled.

Enhanced Block
-Max hp healed can't go over damage received.
Justification: They are knights, understandable, they are tanky, understandable, being to fully nullify any attack against em, understandable. But getting healed by an attack?! This needs to fixed ASAP.

Agree on all of em, especially Reverse Damage. But, that being said, I think Reverse Damage should go away and just be replaced with something more befitting the class. Reverse Damage is something that would be on a Mage or Priest - if there was one. Name it something like "Counter-Attack" and have it be a 100% chance to do 50% PAtk Damage to an attacker when struck for 5 Rounds, BUT it also applies a -5% MDEF & PDEF Penalty while using it. That would make it a good Risk/Reward skill - and very good in WB getting 250% Damage from a non-delphic attack over time.

Mage
Mage are a sneaky class, cause you never know how strong they are till u go to very high lvls. None of their skills can really be nerfed.... but their talents...

Mage Talents:
Survival:
Healing done from 20% + 5% per further talent level to 14% + 4% per further talent lvl.
Justification: Over and over, I fought a lot and made a lot of calcs to finally understand what makes mages so insanely OP. Its this talent. If mage had Delfic Sniper. Its DS would deal less damage to him than a full talented Restoration would heal him!!!! THIS IS INSANE. They practically can overheal any damage dps or burst in same range BR.

It's not as bad as you're stating. Keep in mind that in addition to the Healing % Buff, there's also a Cooldown increase. Over time, You actually heal less with the talent than you do without, and you also short yourself rounds of the 15% DR afforded Restoration because the CD will eventually hit about 30s on it now. The thing it does do via the talent is essentially give you 1 extra attack action instead of a heal action every half minute or so.

Also, while the Mage has the ability to Heal, Healing doesn't increase at the 1 Minute Mark, so now Mages can no longer rely on a Resto to get them through. Vs an Equal BR Knight, I'm taking about 100K Damage from their EDD @ 50%. My Resto normally tops out at about 50k. Archer's DS, of equal BR, will hit me for 85k+ Damage at this point. My Thunderer, at only 295% Base, doesn't compare to these attacks. Hell, an Archer's AP is brutal enough between the 200% Damage and the PDef Debuff and moderate Rage cost and 1s Cd. 2 of those back to back at 50% will end most Mages.

[HELLRAlSER]

you do realise the mage survivability talent comes at a cost increased healing for a longer cd on the skill, i believe people have said before in some cases your better off without it if you need to spam heals over and over to keep a tank alive the amount of extra healing is not a lot compared to your tank having to wait an extra few seconds for the next heal.

Though in all honesty you shouldnt be complaining about mages healing especially since you can heal too if you choose to take iris into a fight and iris' heals are actually stronger than the mages and dont eat your rage plus crit heals on iris are insane and being an archer with all your passives to give you free crit you'll get it more often so stop crying and learn to play your class. archers have some of the best passives of the game.

A mage has an aweful passive called castinator a chance to reduce rage cost of the next attack ... im sure a lot of mages would love to trade this passive with one of the actual good ones you guys get

I took the liberty to break ur post in pieces for easier reading.

I know it increase its CD but the problem is to kill a mage you have to damage > its healing. thus mage CW fights used to end on time cause you cant simply kill a mage little by little. And you raise an interesting issue. Yes it might have its uses untalented, but on PVE. On PVE everyone boils the same since in order to do spire properly you need, mage, archer, knight etc. There is no issue balance if 1 fails all fail, they are account to eachother just the same. Rewards you take for all the same not according to contribution

Raising the point of sylphs. You can also gain extreme single target attack or physical damage etc. Sylphs are not relevant cause they are available to all. In fact you still can heal more throught ur passive.

Overall mage skills are much better, its not case by case examination but overall they are just that strong to require a re-adjustment.

well u should have better set for your lvl... while ur br is awesome for 50 set, u probably have hard time in bg arena since u lvled fast....

I did HAD hard time early. But not anymore, now its piece of cake 25+ wins a time.

u should also compare skills with other classes u said Delphic death star isn't good cuz rage cost but archers use it all time in arena 3x3 even my group(u just need rage rune) it gives 50% stun chance compare to mage which is 10% only

also castinator passive witch mages have someone said above its passive most mages would trade of and he is right (if u think its good trade with one of your own passive)

damnation(from mage) and bts are on same spot but as we know damnation is far worst and no one use it especially on late game

An important issue. DDS deals LESS damage and its UNRELIABLE. MAge counterpart always targets eveyone not random between 2 and 4 targets. Reason of castinator exists is to have 2x thunderer and to finish long fight, which only happen when u fight mage or knights. As i said its an overall examination of power.

edit: zorich i will answer after mines, brb.

[senadbasic]

since its now like u said piece of cake 25+ wins I cant see how u got any problems 25+ wins archer of yours sounds pretty op to me and u say its weakest class

also as I said no one use mage hell thunder its rage hungry and if u use that u wont have heals for your party,imortant part of your DDS is 50% stun and since its 3x3 u don't need 4 targets only 3 also since archers are good at critting and dmg DDS deal a lot dmg but as I said stun is most important here(and many use it in arena)

also castinator don't activate often when u want or when u need ...ill gladly trade with any of your passive 20% crit/20%hp or or 2% stackable dmg(mage with RoF would get max stacks in 1 cast)

[HELLRAlSER]

since its now like u said piece of cake 25+ wins I cant see how u got any problems 25+ wins archer of yours sounds pretty op to me and u say its weakest class

Its more due to i have a knight and a mage with me, and the fact the majority of players in this game, are not very good at it (sad bad true).

also as I said no one use mage hell thunder its rage hungry and if u use that u wont have heals for your party,imortant part of your DDS is 50% stun and since its 3x3 u don't need 4 targets only 3 also since archers are good at critting and dmg DDS deal a lot dmg but as I said stun is most important here(and many use it in arena)

also castinator don't activate often when u want or when u need ...ill gladly trade with any of your passive 20% crit/20%hp or or 2% stackable dmg(mage with RoF would get max stacks in 1 cast)

No archer even SKILLS DDS, that how bad it is, only way you can actually use this, even as being subpar is with a rage rune. This skill can also target 2.

DO you have a healthy leveled GA astral?

Would you Resto for Poison too?!? I would gladly trade my whole class for a mage

BUT that would defeat the purpose of this thread. The purpose is not be stronger than other, but to achieve balance.

[HELLRAlSER]

I would argue that Mage has the worst survivability now. I've seen Archers heal 40k+ w/ Bloodthirsty off my troops (About the same as my Resto - and his attack does damage as well). I've seen 30k+ Heal Runes. Archers get an Innate 20% HP Bonus that a Mage doesn't, and if they use an Iris (I would) they're by far the best Crit-Healers via that. For a Mage to be able to deal enough damage to clear troops in 3 turns, they often have to carry 2 AoE, which means either no Sunto, no Resto or no Thunderer. BL isn't really a great option outside of group PvP / PvE.

But that being said, I would give Archers HP increase of 5%/10% instead of the 10%/20%, but they should also get a 5%/10% PDef increase since they're traditionally lightly armored. MDef doesn't fit unless you start talking class specialties down the road.

Sorry but he does not. I have seen mages go from almost dead to full with resto, I seen mages heal with heal rune more than 30k (they do heal 8% more). Mages gets 20% more mdef also apart from the extra healing. And sorry to dissapoint Iris is not that good for pvp outside of team setups. In a 1vs1 situation with troops, LB+RoF+Meteor+thunderer+resto. What more you could possibly want? Clear troops in 2 aoe bloodrune -> sylph gg.

Am not taking any specialty from anyone mate, on the contrary am enstrengthing archer specialty which is ~ even patt+matt, but master of none, while lowering its hp gain. I said 3/6% patt/matt not 10/20%

I'd say just make DDS full AoE and reduce the Stun Rate to 20%. Still twice as good as Delphic Hell Thunder, but not quite so ridiculous as 50%.

Heck even remove the stun rate and make it damage properly would be enough in a proper aoe would be enough.

Every class has useless talents. Some even hurt you IMO. You could make a whole post unto itself about fixing Talents, so I'm not going to get into those here.

This is more about bugged talents tho, but ok.

Agree on all of em, especially Reverse Damage. But, that being said, I think Reverse Damage should go away and just be replaced with something more befitting the class. Reverse Damage is something that would be on a Mage or Priest - if there was one. Name it something like "Counter-Attack" and have it be a 100% chance to do 50% PAtk Damage to an attacker when struck for 5 Rounds, BUT it also applies a -5% MDEF & PDEF Penalty while using it. That would make it a good Risk/Reward skill - and very good in WB getting 250% Damage from a non-delphic attack over time.

Wouldnt object by i tried not to create new skill rather tweak current to viability.

It's not as bad as you're stating. Keep in mind that in addition to the Healing % Buff, there's also a Cooldown increase. Over time, You actually heal less with the talent than you do without, and you also short yourself rounds of the 15% DR afforded Restoration because the CD will eventually hit about 30s on it now. The thing it does do via the talent is essentially give you 1 extra attack action instead of a heal action every half minute or so.

Its bad, cause if u cant burst a mage down... you simply cant kill him. A PVP doesnt last that long to actually make it heal "less" unless its between mages!!!

Also, while the Mage has the ability to Heal, Healing doesn't increase at the 1 Minute Mark, so now Mages can no longer rely on a Resto to get them through. Vs an Equal BR Knight, I'm taking about 100K Damage from their EDD @ 50%. My Resto normally tops out at about 50k. Archer's DS, of equal BR, will hit me for 85k+ Damage at this point. My Thunderer, at only 295% Base, doesn't compare to these attacks. Hell, an Archer's AP is brutal enough between the 200% Damage and the PDef Debuff and moderate Rage cost and 1s Cd. 2 of those back to back at 50% will end most Mages.

Problem is, after 1min mark its not an archer or mage or knight fight, its a sylph fight, at that point archer is already half dead and killed by any first sylph skill with the increased damage, while mage go almost full in the sylph fight if he resto just before sylph turn.

[senadbasic]

Its more due to i have a knight and a mage with me, and the fact the majority of players in this game, are not very good at it (sad bad true).


No archer even SKILLS DDS, that how bad it is, only way you can actually use this, even as being subpar is with a rage rune. This skill can also target 2.

DO you have a healthy leveled GA astral?

Would you Resto for Poison too?!? I would gladly trade my whole class for a mage

BUT that would defeat the purpose of this thread. The purpose is not be stronger than other, but to achieve balance.

poison arrow combine with blood rune on 50% dmg it kills like hell...we use it for tok hard or nm to kill them easy since that dmg isntreducesfrom blood or poison arrow through defense

ga isn't good if u want crit heal on your self I heard it actually reduce and crit directed at u even beneficial,also at least archers got passive crit 20% other classes don't have so have even harder time if someone equipped it


mage cant also use hell thunder without rage rune and just like archers in my group use it 2 cast DDS I use my valuable rage to throw bl rstor while conserve rage with RoF and meteor (DDS can stun enemies at critical moment when they use bl or in sylph mode when they are)

[HELLRAlSER]

poison arrow combine with blood rune on 50% dmg it kills like hell...we use it for tok hard or nm to kill them easy since that dmg isntreducesfrom blood or poison arrow through defense

False, poison is reduced by pdef and RGB.

ga isn't good if u want crit heal on your self I heard it actually reduce and crit directed at u even beneficial,also at least archers got passive crit 20% other classes don't have so have even harder time if someone equipped it

Again false. GA does NOT reduce the chance u have to get critically healed. But why on earth you would want to gimp your self by going crit? WD is so much better.

And last point, again false. Even if you have 11242513billion crit, you are chance vs a GA is 50% at BEST case. For lower crit rates (lets say 5k crit?) your chance TO CRIT vs a GA is less than 50%, close to 40%.

mage cant also use hell thunder without rage rune and just like archers in my group use it 2 cast DDS I use my valuable rage to throw bl rstor while conserve rage with RoF and meteor (DDS can stun enemies at critical moment when they use bl or in sylph mode when they are)

Exactly my point, its abysmally better than DDS and you still dont use it cause the other skills are even better.

[R215361131]

Not this one, this one its exactly the opposite when facing guardian angel. The more crit you the more you have wasted. what if you have 1billion crit? Still is 50% chance to crit vs a GA.

Edit: GB be back soon, for more details and answers to posts.

yes but this astral will always exist and it affects every single class not just archers. The majority of players have swaped to crit builds at higher lvls because they have to because sylphs when they crit are amazing its not very fesable going will destroyer anymore, the benefits of crit far outweigh the benefits of will destroyer. The guardian astral will affect eveveryone. The guardian angel astral will "reduce your chance of receiving crit" say your an archer and your crit chance for arguements sake is 80% and yes its true the guardian angel will make you crit that player less but because of your passive you have a higher crit chance than the other players to begin with, the affect of guardian angel on a knight or mage going crit is bigger than it is on archers, im still not seeing any imbalance against archers...

[HELLRAlSER]

yes but this astral will always exist and it affects every single class not just archers.

The majority of players have swaped to crit builds at higher lvls because they have to because sylphs when they crit are amazing its not very fesable going will destroyer anymore, the benefits of crit far outweigh the benefits of will destroyer.

The guardian astral will affect eveveryone. The guardian angel astral will "reduce your chance of receiving crit" say your an archer and your crit chance for arguements sake is 80% and yes its true the guardian angel will make you crit that player less but because of your passive you have a higher crit chance than the other players to begin with, the affect of guardian angel on a knight or mage going crit is bigger than it is on archers, im still not seeing any imbalance against archers...

I took the liberty on breaking your post on points.

1st. This astral affects everyone, but, 100times more the archer. Archers do NOT have option if they want to go crit or wd. They go crit cause they have a lot of crit based skills, but most importantely thats how they freakin get RAGE.

2nd. Looking amazing and actually being amazing its 2 different things. Majority(?) of players have swapped to crit builds cause they are freakin nabs OR cause it doesnt matter. Yes it doesnt. They will still murder you with their ~199k BR even if they never crit. Rest will die like pidgeons. I have yet to lose to anyone at my BR that is on crit (ty GA). Thats its not balance debate issue thats the sad bad true story that this game is mostly populated by bad players.

3rd Higher you wanna get 1 specific stat, higher the "resources" you sacrifice to do so costs, high the crit value, higher the number of reduction. more "resources" being lost to do so. And you shouldnt have been on crit at the first place, its bad.

[R215361131]

I took the liberty to break ur post in pieces for easier reading.

I know it increase its CD but the problem is to kill a mage you have to damage > its healing. thus mage CW fights used to end on time cause you cant simply kill a mage little by little. And you raise an interesting issue. Yes it might have its uses untalented, but on PVE. On PVE everyone boils the same since in order to do spire properly you need, mage, archer, knight etc. There is no issue balance if 1 fails all fail, they are account to eachother just the same. Rewards you take for all the same not according to contribution

Raising the point of sylphs. You can also gain extreme single target attack or physical damage etc. Sylphs are not relevant cause they are available to all. In fact you still can heal more throught ur passive.

mages heal passive is kinda low tbh 8% when you crit heal you heal for far more than a 8% buff the mage has and being an archer with an inate higher crit value you will crit more often if your not doing something wrong. And abotu your talent comment we have to CHOOSE we cant just have a talent for pvp and turn it off for pve, if we choose to have it on we "suffer" in the other aspect and vice versa if its off. The negative side of this talent forces a choice (choices are good btw separates players within a class) as far as im aware none of your archer talents are choice based (feel free to correct me if im wrong) your talents are basically this is good take it or this is bad and all classes have ones that are bad for most situations. As someone stated earlier you can outdamage a mages healing when you hit 50% damage because healing isnt affect but damage to the other person is, so pvp is slanted towards if you do more damage you win and as an archer you cant really begrudge this