The "I want BG by BR!" thread [merged threads]

[R238423534]

BG is meant for stronger players to dominate and get more rewards than weaker players. That's probably part of their game design intent so we could probably never get a BG where everyone is equal power.

However, the honor loss system is detrimental to BG participation for free players, small spenders and new players. Without honor loss reduction, or with a low VIP level, a player can lose anywhere between 10 and 400 honors per defeat after they have turned Crusader. This applies to not only the ones with high honor level and able to gain 74-320 honor per kill, but also the low honor levels who only get 26 honor per kill. If all players were equally old, this isn't a problem, because the stronger players tend to have higher honor levels and only cost a weaker player 10 honor per defeat. However, the game kept evolving at a rapid rate, and a lot of things could be bought now, which creates many strong hardcore cashers on newer servers. Those new but strong players are nightmare to weaker players on older servers, because they have low honor and keep farming the weaker players with higher honor. Weaker players don't gain much honor from BG because they can't get kills. Many took over 2 years of guild battle participation just to build an honor rank higher than Crusader. At -400 honor per defeat, they could lose the honors they took years to build in days. Dryad would not help in here, because it requires at least 2 defeats for a 10% dryad, which already costs them -800 honor, not to mention most still can't get kills at 10% dryad. Getting 200-400 per kill with dryad still costs them at least 400-600 honor loss, which is something no one would do. Subsequently, they simply enter BG in the last moment to pick up the small rewards at the end, and never run out of camp at all, which means neither they nor the medium players could get kills in BG. The big players also have a harder time to build honor this way, because the ones who run out of camp need to have high VIP levels, which means they have a higher chance of being stronger than those who hide in camp in fear of honor loss. Imposing such an honor loss system is basically a total loss to the medium and small players and a reduced gain for the big players.

Wartune was designed for a different market, and this could be a good way to motivate players to spend in there. But in the US market, and possibly in many parts of the world, this isn't a good way to motivate anyone to spend. To us, we need to see at least some hope and possibility in order to keep playing and keep spending. If it's all hopeless, we won't make a blind bet by dumping cash into something that won't work or that takes more time and effort than the other equal spenders to make it work. Many free starters decided not to start spending after bad experience in game. Many low spenders stopped spending and stopped BG participation altogether. It's a different market with different driving factors. Publishers really need to customize their game to better suit their market demands.

With this much said, my 2 possible suggestions would be,

1 - To eliminate the honor loss system, so that free players and weak players can still run out of camp and play the game. For the big players, this means more easy targets in BG and faster honor gains. For the small players, this means they don't need to live in fear of honor loss or defeat in BG, so they still have fun participating in BG without suffering major honor loss. Many just play the game for fun, and would still participate in BG battles even if they lose most if not all fights. Winning is important, but to many lesser serious players, participation is where the fun lies in.

2 - To group players of similar honor ranks together. That way, everyone gets about same amount of honor gain per kill and loses only the minimum 10 honor per defeat. The bigger players with low honor ranks can't farm the smaller players with higher honor this way, but they get more easy targets to kill and build honor faster, so it's big gain to them. The smaller players still lose a small amount of honor per defeat, but they can still get some honor and some kills because other small players also run out of camp, and also because dryad helps in such situation.

From a technical perspective, eliminating honor loss is easier to approach than modifying the matching system. I do not know if the game has such configuration options, but if it does have it, I'd strongly urge deployment of such options.

[KS222]

With this much said, my 2 possible suggestions would be,

1 - To eliminate the honor loss system, so that free players and weak players can still run out of camp and play the game. For the big players, this means more easy targets in BG and faster honor gains. For the small players, this means they don't need to live in fear of honor loss or defeat in BG, so they still have fun participating in BG without suffering major honor loss. Many just play the game for fun, and would still participate in BG battles even if they lose most if not all fights. Winning is important, but to many lesser serious players, participation is where the fun lies in.

2 - To group players of similar honor ranks together. That way, everyone gets about same amount of honor gain per kill and loses only the minimum 10 honor per defeat. The bigger players with low honor ranks can't farm the smaller players with higher honor this way, but they get more easy targets to kill and build honor faster, so it's big gain to them. The smaller players still lose a small amount of honor per defeat, but they can still get some honor and some kills because other small players also run out of camp, and also because dryad helps in such situation.

From a technical perspective, eliminating honor loss is easier to approach than modifying the matching system. I do not know if the game has such configuration options, but if it does have it, I'd strongly urge deployment of such options.

Considering that mitigation/removal of honor loss is one of the more valued perks of VIP, I don't see it as likely for them to remove honor loss for everyone. However, I would suggest making it a VIP level 1 perk rather than level 9 perk. My reasoning is simple. VIP 9 is expensive. Many people who would not buy VIP just for cds would do it if it meant 0 honor loss. They're not going to cash to VIP 9, but they will spend for that VIP 1 if it'll let them do bg without fear of losing their honor rank. Since this game is very much intended to encourage cashing, I would say making 0 honor loss a VIP 1 perk would do a good job of converting many non cash players to low cash players. Additionally, with the VIP passes in higher level fishing, it would encourage non cashers to come to bg too. Pop your 1 hour VIP and enter bg without fear of losing rank.

[KS222]

I agree behavior will change with rewards, but you fail to understand it is in human nature to want more and better stuff as a reward, so this will never happen. You gain inner satisfaction from a "good fight", but some do from killcount. As i wrote before "good fights" you can do on any level with any br if thats what you want.

It is human nature to want more and better stuff, but a reward is something one is supposed to earn. That's where the game messes up. They reward us the same for 1 hit kills as for fights that go to 500% bonus time. When its the same reward for each, those who do the least "work" will get the most rewards because they can simply rack up the kills faster by going for the fast easy win. The irony is we get "honor" for these easy victories.

Maybe the devs could have some fun with this; if they aren't going to change the system, they could come up with some titles to razz players for the very behavior the game encourages. How about a nice, neon pink "Farmer" title for someone who kills 5k players 100k BR weaker than them? As a bonus achievement for the big spenders, they could give one of those big gaudy titles "Noob Slayer" for killing 10k players 300k BR weaker than them. They'd need a big system message too; like the rose spam, to make sure everyone knows they earned the title and what the title is for. To make it extra fun, they'd need to make sure the stat boost is the least useful possible; how about +10 Charisma?

[drwho2014]

if they don't change it, break it

go in with 10 minutes left, sit in camp

[R238423534]

As you could see that, over a short period of time, VIP-only players are minor comparing to the cashers, but over time (let's say, over 2 years) they are the major source of income. Having tiered honor loss reduction instead of instant honor reduction, and requiring the max VIP level to attain and maintain it, is one way they keep longer-term VIP players from stopping or suspending their VIP. I do see the marketing motive behind this rewards structure, and it sort of makes sense, because Wartune is a longer-term game, it makes sense for them to keep the longer-term players. I highly doubt they would make honor loss reduction a VIP 1 feature, but it is definitely a desirable change to happen.

Considering that mitigation/removal of honor loss is one of the more valued perks of VIP, I don't see it as likely for them to remove honor loss for everyone. However, I would suggest making it a VIP level 1 perk rather than level 9 perk. My reasoning is simple. VIP 9 is expensive. Many people who would not buy VIP just for cds would do it if it meant 0 honor loss. They're not going to cash to VIP 9, but they will spend for that VIP 1 if it'll let them do bg without fear of losing their honor rank. Since this game is very much intended to encourage cashing, I would say making 0 honor loss a VIP 1 perk would do a good job of converting many non cash players to low cash players. Additionally, with the VIP passes in higher level fishing, it would encourage non cashers to come to bg too. Pop your 1 hour VIP and enter bg without fear of losing rank.

[R238423534]

But that way it'll possibly take longer than the game's lifespan to build max honor, which means most would just get tired of it and never bother to participate in BG. That makes honor building much harder for players of all strength levels, and fewer people would feel motivated to cash hard or play hard to do well in BG.

if they don't change it, break it

go in with 10 minutes left, sit in camp

[KS222]

But that way it'll possibly take longer than the game's lifespan to build max honor, which means most would just get tired of it and never bother to participate in BG. That makes honor building much harder for players of all strength levels, and fewer people would feel motivated to cash hard or play hard to do well in BG.

In Fire Temple, that will at least get you the minimum soul seal reward. For players who can't compete and who lose massive honor if they try (you level up way faster than you get BR if you don't cash, camp, or both), popping in last min and AFKing is a viable strategy for slow growth. The PvP in this game is brutal for new players and low BR players, so as annoying as it is to have my team lose due to 3/4 of the team being AFK in the spawn, I can understand why people do it.

That massive honor loss is, just by itself, a big turn off on bg for many players. If you always end up in the negative, no matter how hard you try, you're gonna give up on it after a while. If you want to encourage participation and spending, you need to make the goals attainable. People won't refinance their houses to try to take down the whale who is farming them every bg; it just isn't going to happen. They might spend $20 to win against that guy they can almost beat. They also need to make a way to stop or drastically reduce honor loss available to new players and low cash players; I can see why they'd want to have 0 honor loss as a reward for long term VIP or big $ VIP, but the way the game is set up, the current penalties for fights players have no chance of ever winning drives them away before they spend so much as a dime. In a cash optional game, driving away the majority of new customers before they spend seems like a poor practice.

[R238423534]

Like I said earlier, Wartune was designed for a different (Chinese) market. Brutal BG might drive business in there, but here in the US, no one wants to buy pains or stress in hope of feeling better in the future. Giving players pain and bullying before they start spending or when they were still small simply means they would never start at all or stop spending right away. Wartune is not the first or only imported game, but it seems to me it's not customized for its target market.

In Fire Temple, that will at least get you the minimum soul seal reward. For players who can't compete and who lose massive honor if they try (you level up way faster than you get BR if you don't cash, camp, or both), popping in last min and AFKing is a viable strategy for slow growth. The PvP in this game is brutal for new players and low BR players, so as annoying as it is to have my team lose due to 3/4 of the team being AFK in the spawn, I can understand why people do it.

That massive honor loss is, just by itself, a big turn off on bg for many players. If you always end up in the negative, no matter how hard you try, you're gonna give up on it after a while. If you want to encourage participation and spending, you need to make the goals attainable. People won't refinance their houses to try to take down the whale who is farming them every bg; it just isn't going to happen. They might spend $20 to win against that guy they can almost beat. They also need to make a way to stop or drastically reduce honor loss available to new players and low cash players; I can see why they'd want to have 0 honor loss as a reward for long term VIP or big $ VIP, but the way the game is set up, the current penalties for fights players have no chance of ever winning drives them away before they spend so much as a dime. In a cash optional game, driving away the majority of new customers before they spend seems like a poor practice.

[R24773971]

From what i can see now, most want the BG to be separated again by BR. one question...will it be separated by lvl or only by BR?

I started playing in 2012, and we only had our own server BG on 2 brackets...now we have more brackets and even more to be created if the separating by BR will be applied. I have nothing against such a request would actually be fun to see it at work. I would suggest it like this:
- LVL brackets kept (we do need the lvls to be the same otherwise HS discussion will start all over again, but never forget HS is a feature not a bugnso who wants to use will use it doesn't mean that person s i skillless.)
- BR bracket difference of 10-20k should suffice

But nonetheless, cupcake threads will always exist. That will happen because of the following reasons...what will you do w ith the lowest and highest LVL bracket and what will happen with the lvl80 players, as let's not forget they have the widest range of BRs and the most difficult to adapt to this situation.

[daunapu]

i want bg by br, so i can teach everyone in it how awfull idea it is

[KS222]

Like I said earlier, Wartune was designed for a different (Chinese) market. Brutal BG might drive business in there, but here in the US, no one wants to buy pains or stress in hope of feeling better in the future. Giving players pain and bullying before they start spending or when they were still small simply means they would never start at all or stop spending right away. Wartune is not the first or only imported game, but it seems to me it's not customized for its target market.

Perhaps; I'm not familiar enough with Chinese culture to say. Wartune does a very good job of exploiting people's competitive side and desire to win, and with a few tweaks to make it more palatable to a US market, it would probably be an even bigger cash cow. I've seen evidence that Wartune USA does have influence over what goes into the US version of the game; the lack of auction house being a primary example. That said, I have to wonder why they don't weigh in on other parts of the game that may work in China but are far less effective here. You'd think small changes that would increase profits would be something they'd want.

[iLarp]

I completely agree with Yofireballer's opening post. SOMETHING must be done to ensure that those participating twice a day for 48 minutes of their game time, do not walk away from their game experience with virtually nothing to show for it. MY last 2 BG's I have received nothing from my time spent therein other than the loser rewards at the end, and a quest completion for my first of 2 BG's

One thing I would suggest is that the developers come up with something that would enable those participating in Battlegrounds at least be able to pick up one or 2 carts of crystals. I have just resumed playing Wartune after 18 months away from the game, and something has obviously changed. I am now level 47, and have been doing my 2 daily attempts since I was high enough to participate in battlegrounds. I am meticulous about equipping my character with the best items available for each level. After 5 years of playing the game, even though I know the game quite well, I still read the guides to research how I can be the best I can be.

I am extremely frustrated and disappointed that nothing appears to have been done to level out the playing field or develop a matching system, to prevent the gross mismatching that currently exists in Battlegrounds. As previously stated I have been completing my 2 daily battleground attempts since level 30. I have only won 3 battles so far on my archer. What frustrates me more than anything is the fact that as of late (my last 3 battlegrounds to be precise) is my opponents have successfully camped our spawn exit, and prevented us from collecting crystals. My last couple of battlegrounds even though I have the maximum Dryad buff, I have not been able to pick up a single cart of crystals. For me personally, unless this changes soon I will move onto another game of this genre, where the developers have devised some method of matching, or means whereby participants at least have a chance of doing something constructive for their character for the 24 minutes spent in the battlegrounds. A few simple solutions that come to mind immediately is spawn area guards that actually serve a purpose for those or the area they are placed to guard. Another would be diminishing returns for repeatedly killing the same opponent. I can attest to the effectiveness of this, having seen it applied in other games of the genre where PvP is part of the game experience. Personally I think the idea of diminishing returns in battlegrounds would go a long way to help. Something along the lines of a 30% reduction of points received for the second kill against the same opponent, a 60% reduction for the third kill, and 100% for the fourth kill, unless of course somewhere in between those kills that same opponent would win, whereby all diminishing returns would be completely reset. Another solution would be an increasing Dryad buff that is actually effective enough to ensure that participants have at least 1 chance of walking away with a kill.

As it stands none of the current developments within the game are doing what they were designed to do. Namely to ensure that all those who participate in battlegrounds have a near 100% chance of walking away from their 24 minute battleground experience, with something constructive for their character, for their time and effort spent.

[Arandeath]

it's not going to get better,my non-casher 74k will always
be up against the 150k+ casher br.we are here to feed them
so they feel justified with all the money they put on a game.
last bg it was one with 225k and one at 185k,camping the
graveyard and killed the resource officer on top of it.so even
if someone snuck past for a cart,no point really.

[iLarp]

if they don't change it, break it

go in with 10 minutes left, sit in camp

5 minutes of no change in points automatically kicks one out of battlegrounds ...

[rangelaeyes]

Best get used to it. I have, which is why I only very rarely do BGs anymore.