Archers and the World Boss - should it be changed???

[KnowingEyes7]

Where do you get the 50% extra damage from crit?

A crit yields 50% extra damage innately?

[BrixunMortar]

a crit grants 50% more dmg

[BrixunMortar]

block gives 50% reduced dmg

[KnowingEyes7]

block gives 50% reduced dmg

30%. We could start a thread on how crit > block. :3

Kidding.

[BrixunMortar]

is block only 30%? thought it was 50% same as crit, my bad

[Why_Me]

I suppose everyone missed reading the conclusions made or did you all just see the Words - Archer and World Boss and Gold and decide to rant about that.

^^

Admittedly I have watched this thread with a morbid curiosity because this same conversation happens at least once a week via guild chat. (Almost always sparked by the same Knight too lol complaining abt WB)

For Billy, and the OP, you will never get a Knight/Mage to understand the short comings of being an Archer in comparison to the two opposite classes. WB is the only benefit of being an archer, but only an archer is going to understand and appreciate that POV. It was a mistake to say Archers need even more of a WB benefit than we receive because we don't and it only served to flame the other two classes beyond being able to even try to understand or even see the archer POV.

Billy, you were trying to make some valid points to which others were just ignoring and arguing around because simply the wording in the first post. Maybe creating a different discussion thread strictly explaining Archer Crit in action vs other classes, in multiple scenarios such as Arena(s), BG... while leaving out WB rewards may serve to get understanding across better....and even then you will have those that choose to intentionally not understand the set up.

[Xeptone]

Agreed
Time and time again I repeat
Archer getting lots of gold and excel in WB .... Fine
But to justify it by u nid 2 astral instead of 1 astral used by Knight and mages ... NOT FINE
U can just argue
Hey thats how the archer is designed for so we are just shinning in areas we are suppose to shine so cool it
I will leave it as it is.

[Billy_McF]

^^

Well it is nice that someone can actually look at an argument in a matter of fact way, weighing up what has been proposed and then make comments/suggestions on those points. The amount of posts that state "You are wrong because we say so" got to a ridiculous amount, and this is what inflamed me more than anything else.

I agree that the each class will always have gripes about the other 2. It has become obvious that there is no way to present these differences in a civilized and ordered manner in these forums.
There are always people who jump on the metaphorical bandwagon and choose to ignore the information provided. Their attitude is that if they shout long and loud enough then they will win, and that they should not have to provide a balanced argument with data/facts to back up their ravings.

From now on I will refrain from commenting on any post that has that sort of trend setting in.

I will also concede that on balance, once evidence was provided, I was incorrect with some of my findings. There are now 12 pages of posts in this thread. If some evidence had been provided at an earlier stage a lot of the mudslinging and name calling could have been avoided.

Thank you all for your input regarding any of my posts, and please accept my apologies for any name calling or rudeness that I may have shown towards the other members of this forum.

[KnowingEyes7]

^^

For Billy, and the OP, you will never get a Knight/Mage to understand the short comings of being an Archer in comparison to the two opposite classes. WB is the only benefit of being an archer, but only an archer is going to understand and appreciate that POV.

Surely you jest. ONLY WB?

I swear, it's this "we only get the WB so deal" argument that instigates the whole thing. I don't know how anyone can justify it as I see plenty of top end archers take out top end mages. If PvP is relatively balanced (clothes could paint a somewhat different argument), why do ~80% of the events still favor raw DPS?

The irony is I think overall mages have the best deal of the bunch -- but it's sentiments such as these (archers should reign supreme) that draw knights into the fray of the discussion.

[KnowingEyes7]

Well it is nice that someone can actually look at an argument in a matter of fact way, weighing up what has been proposed and then make comments/suggestions on those points. The amount of posts that state "You are wrong because we say so" got to a ridiculous amount, and this is what inflamed me more than anything else.

I agree that the each class will always have gripes about the other 2. It has become obvious that there is no way to present these differences in a civilized and ordered manner in these forums.
There are always people who jump on the metaphorical bandwagon and choose to ignore the information provided. Their attitude is that if they shout long and loud enough then they will win, and that they should not have to provide a balanced argument with data/facts to back up their ravings.

From now on I will refrain from commenting on any post that has that sort of trend setting in.

I will also concede that on balance, once evidence was provided, I was incorrect with some of my findings. There are now 12 pages of posts in this thread. If some evidence had been provided at an earlier stage a lot of the mudslinging and name calling could have been avoided.

Thank you all for your input regarding any of my posts, and please accept my apologies for any name calling or rudeness that I may have shown towards the other members of this forum.

We can live with that.. and echo the sentiment. =)

[SinnedWill]

Contrary to many archers' belief (or perhaps their intent is to have others think they believe), archers excel at far more than just WB. All things being equal (gear, guild skills, astrals, gems, honor medallion, mount, enlightenment, engraving level, etc...), when an archer is compared to any other class, they'll outperform both mage and knight in boss fights (MPD and campaign), catacombs, necropolis, BG guards, Divine Altar, GB Ward Tower, and of course... WB - reasoning for this (let's be honest) is that "best defense is a good offense" applies heavily in this game (in fact, in some of the aforementioned cases, it's the only possible method for success) not to mention the grotesque advantages granted by using Deep Freeze. All of these aspects of the game favor archers hands down. But wait, there's more...

Contrary to many archers' belief, they do excel in pvp as well (once again, with all things being equal - gear, skills, astrals, etc...) PARTICULARLY against mages. You can argue this all you want, but seriously, archer vs. mage on equal fields = significant odds of success in favor of the archer. Sure, a knight on equal playing field CAN make an archer look silly, but that's b/c it's what the class is designed for. I find that the majority of archers whom complain about other classes having advantages over them in pvp are either facing someone with a significantly more developed character (in which case, "duh. Impending Doom." comes to mind) or they're incredibly biased towards their damage-dealing stats (gems, astrals, enlightenment, guild skills, etc) to a point that they've heavily neglected their defenses. Of course, once these players have actually taken the time to try out different things to improve their defenses or survivability, they finally meet with success and suddenly stop complaining - albeit, they never speak up about feeling better in the situation so that others might not catch on (not sure why, but there really are a lot of greedy archers out there).

Now, back to WB. Yes, archers (by design) should be dishing out the most damage with all things being equal (gear, astrals, gems, guild skills, englithenment, etc...) compared to other classes, that is perfectly logical based upon how the class is meant to be played, but when moderately less-developed archers are surpassing damage values dealt by their superiors of other classes it becomes blatantly obvious that there is a problem with balance in WB (when I say moderately less-developed, I'm referancing an archer with 16.7k base PATK and lv. 6 Determination Astral compared to my 19.5k base MATK with lv. 7 Will Destroyer). In this example, said archer deals roughly 10% more damage than I do each round (both of us using same buff value amounts and same potion levels) initially AND he is able to finish his rounds 8-10 seconds faster than my own. Later on in the WB, the damage gap broadens more significantly due to the way in which flat-value bonuses from inspiration get modified much more heavily with %-based modifiers - and sorry, but even when using Sniper's Edge + Determination as a mage, the gap (although less significant) still broadens due to the innate crit-based multipliers attached to archers' abilities. BUT, that's still not even my concern in the matter. I can live with these moderately less-developed archers surpassing me in the manner in which they do (I feel it might need to be toned down a little bit, however) but my primary concern is how obvious the current math favors archers with inspiration since I begin to see archers with sub-10k attack values and lv. 4 astrals take the places of far superior-developed characters near the end - in many cases. Early on in the WB fights, you have your legitimate top 10. Late in WB fights, you'll gradually notice the lowbie archers knocking out the other classes.

Now... why should archers not dominate WB so heavily/consistantly/easily compared to other classes? Because every class has the very same amounts of gold/daru cost requirements FOR GROWTH. Certain classes may require more gold for upkeep than others, but that becomes moot when growth/developement is the key to actually being capable of performing well in WB ("rich get richer").

[Spinsar]

SinnedWill explained this well.

As a mage on world boss I lose to archers with 1000 less attack and I have 15k before buffs. With all the damage modifiers on world boss the gold and daru gap widens significantly from what it was. This means archers continue to gear up faster than me and continue to increase that gap more and more as time goes on with equal amount of work and knowledge into this game. With Knights it is far worse and I don't even know the numbers as I only ever see knights on the meter when they are ressing and use balens bonus. And to go on with what SinnedWill said, I see the 2 or 3 mages on the meter begin around 5 and 6 for the first bunch of rounds and then gradually fall to the bottom of the meter by the end of the fight.

World boss is by far the most important event to participate in for progressing your character, and with all the events about single target damage, archers are heavily favored and overpowered.

[7ziper]

SinnedWill explained this well.

As a mage on world boss I lose to archers with 1000 less attack and I have 15k before buffs. With all the damage modifiers on world boss the gold and daru gap widens significantly from what it was. This means archers continue to gear up faster than me and continue to increase that gap more and more as time goes on with equal amount of work and knowledge into this game. With Knights it is far worse and I don't even know the numbers as I only ever see knights on the meter when they are ressing and use balens bonus. And to go on with what SinnedWill said, I see the 2 or 3 mages on the meter begin around 5 and 6 for the first bunch of rounds and then gradually fall to the bottom of the meter by the end of the fight.

World boss is by far the most important event to participate in for progressing your character, and with all the events about single target damage, archers are heavily favored and overpowered.

That archer just less 1000 attc then U ... @ my server have mage with attc 16k +++ still lose from archer with attck 13,2k .... and that mage has 2,6 k crit ... thats a huge diffrent but still lose ....

[ando82]

the last patch somehow increased the crit chance (archers crit more boss crits more times)

who is stopping mages and knights from making a crit based build for wb?

[Tryggsama]

Totaly agree with SinnedWIll, cant explain the problem better - less developed archer easily beats other 2 classes in dmg this is what is rly unfair.

And 1 simple solution for most knights would be if we could double hit our ultimate slasher normaly like archers have no problem to do. Once u fail double hit US u do normal attack in 1 round and US in 2nd instead of both in same round this is a big dmg loss. And if we can do that we can use EDD instead of DD for some bonus dmg. Whit that i might just be able to beat those pesky under developed archers.
Not to mention afk mode on archers is so much better then on knights, idk for mages but it sure cant be worse then knights afk mode