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Overdevelopment

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  • Overdevelopment

    Every time we see "major" patches, we see the game broken.

    Lately, as one key example, we've got the new "Hide Other Objects" checkbox in many events. Now, by itself, if we could figure out just what should and shouldn't be hidden, it's an admission the devs have gone way too far, and have shoved too many graphics into a game that can't handle what it already had. But, this "feature," if that's what it is, is so badly hosed it's hopeless.

    EVERY event is hurt right now. EVERY event has things not working, broken, impossible to work around.

    I'm drowning in a sea of graphics, but for days now, or is it already weeks, I can't see my opponents in combat, I'm drowning in a sea of bad, overlapping, ugly graphics that show sometimes the "Crit" that I've done and some number of points of damage. Or is it the crit someone else has done? It lingers on the screen round after round, and I'm already dead and can't attack anymore, but still seeing this sea of graphics, lag, things supposed to be nifty and pretty...but I can't even see what class my enemy is, whether he has a sylph or what color (nevermind how many stars) it is, or what the sylph is. If I uncheck the "Hide" button, it does me the favor of checking itself again and, with lag, hiding everything before it's revealed. It's useless.

    I'm perhaps better off with a blindfold and pressing random keys.

    Now, I know you have ambitious programmers who want to make their marks with how wonderful and pretty their code and graphics are. But, seriously, can ANYONE playing this game with a halfway developed toon even SEE combat and graphics anymore? Even with "Hide Clothing," "Hide Other Objects," Hide This and Hide That?

    I'm just not playing a game anymore. This is not fun. It's annoying, obnoxious, and actually quite greedy that you're foisting on us this broken game and trying to take our mind off it with more R2Mentors showing up so we'll ask questions rather than complain. Well, I, for one, can't see enough to play enough to even ask questions. I'm not learning new facets of the game. I come here to have fun, not fight with the game so overladen with graphics I can't even see it.

    Worse, many others don't even bother to discuss it. We had been getting 20-25 for our guild battles, and perhaps a better showing on Fridays for a particular matchup. Last night, we saw EIGHT players, from an active guild of 150. People coming back on line after being away saw the lag and left again, too. It's killing our guild, and our fun.

    What I want as a fix is for you to STOP adding new developments. Just stop it. If you're shoving code in that doesn't work so that we can't see it and can't play the game, what is the point?

    And, roll this game back a couple of patches. Unless you're absolutely certain not only that the code works fully and better than before, and for a normal person with a connection that's not internal to your company so that there's normal latency, there is NO point to it. Get rid of it. I don't need more items to shove into my inventory...for which I refuse to spend money, as it's another obnoxious gimmick...and you need to show some mercy to your player community who has put up with this every time the development cycle hits again, and, this time, for weeks of play that isn't play, isn't fun, and is a turn-off.

    Give us our game back, please.

    And if you don't, don't moan about how you need to develop more to keep players happy and spending. You don't. You need to give us a playable game. This one isn't worth spending on. We can't even see it anymore.

    Pull every server off line. Now. Revert to earlier code. Now. Worry about how many more you will permanently lose if you don't do that now. It's happening. It's just a matter of whether some dev, with all good intent, will insist "I can fix this if you just let me try this new code." To that dev, sorry, you're wrong. The people leaving the game quickly here are speaking with their feet, and their wallets. Don't be tone deaf. Do the right thing.

    And stop developing a game that can't handle it. If you look at the state of game play on Wartune right now, it's pretty obvious. We've passed beyond mere overdevelopment to what looks more like intentionally killing the game. Devs, it's up to you to get the message. Hope I've delivered it to the right place. Tickets don't help. It's all up to you now.

  • #2
    i think the last paragraph is the key. I think they are trying to kill the game and push you to one of the other **** games they are selling

    Comment


    • #3
      I there is different interpretation possible:

      1) There exists somebody who tried to listen to the threads about lags
      2) The person picked that players wants to hide unneeded characters, eudemons and minions
      3) Unfortunately, the same person has limited knowledge about game
      4) But the request was forced to developers

      And then comes Mr. Developer
      a) They want from us to hide something, so he designed to hide full person, not what should be hidden - the clothes and animations (every new clothes starts loading at the beginning of battle or ground where is needed).
      b) but we want big data loads, so we will let the system load even later non-used eudemons, characters etc
      c) maybe for the reason that somebody may switch it on and off during game
      d) So he added switch and into code check before rendering

      so it was designed and delivered untested on WAN with jitter and proxy farm

      result:
      - the good-will person will never ask developers more
      - it will take long time before support will be able to force developers to change
      - and yes, Zedd60 is right, they will offer you discount to switch to new game instead of fixing the badly designed change

      Comment


      • #4
        P-J-J, I am trying to take in your response and think you likely have some points here.

        What we're also missing is the devil in the code. How much overhead was added in patches for things like data mining. How much are players being taken to task and pushed back upon when it's hidden stuff we really need to be rid of? That's also at play here.

        Let's have someone respond to whatever is going on with development. But, there's so much that's been wrong with the game for a while now, rolling out new features nobody can even see is just sad. We, players and gamerunners, all just deserve so much better.

        Overdevelopment is now the bug. That's why I'm reporting it here. It needs fixing.
        Last edited by Centaur0001; 10-31-2015, 10:30 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Zedd60 View Post
          i think the last paragraph is the key. I think they are trying to kill the game and push you to one of the other **** games they are selling
          I'm not going to another game.
          If I leave Wartune, real life is calling, and that's that.
          Terrible game play due to broken code is what would then linger in my mind, and I don't need that in yet another game that may get tired of me.
          Make Wartune work. That's why I'm here in this forum giving my $0.02. If we're talking about other games, then we're already done here. All of us.

          Comment


          • #6
            First, I am going to say it's partially my fault since I was THAT ONE that suggested some "hides" for this patch. Had I didn't suggest or word it, we probably wouldn't have this mess now.

            Now with that out of the way, allow me to voice something that was meant to happen, through my eyes, not R2's/7Road's/ProCity's:

            When I first came out with the suggestion, it was supposed to hide players in places like Guild Battles, own team in Battle Grounds, Guild Beast, or any place where so many characters in one fixed point will cause a major traffic jam that will make the 405 look like the autobahn in comparison. When R2 announced that they are doing something with the lag, I would think they would have at least some sort of intelligence in limiting the "data transfers" since somehow we didn't have a cache (and still don't at the time of this post) when they made 5.0. I didn't figure they will muck it up by limiting the WRONG kind in the process.

            They only got one thing right in this latest fiasco which is the auto-hide in Cloud City since it's a pain in the rear end to log in, try to close the icon bar, check in, and close certain aspects of the game while trying to "hide players" so you can MOVE at least. Now this is what I really WANT to see happen in game:

            1. Get rid of the swirly <expletive>! Again, we don't need the swirls on icons, it's not that <expletive> important and rather an annoyance. If we want to tap into an event, we can do so at our leisure (or maybe not since many events have been nerfed or skimped).

            2. Get rid of the big <expletive> text! The small text was working well before, and I don't think gamers need glasses to read those numbers, so why the <expletive> make them large to the point it fills up the screen?

            3. Get rid of the shaking, you're going to give both the user and computer a seizure. I know my computer has felt the brunt afterwards when I had to flatline the app I was using.

            4. Put back the <expletive> cache!!! How many times have we, the players, had asked for this since the fiasco that is 5.0? If you tell me to "clear my cache" (when there is none present), I am going to literally cuss you the <expletive> out and pistol whip you. No one can really play the game when they have to re-download every <expletive> time they go in. It's total <expletive>!

            5. And lastly, either do the suggestion right, or ask <expletive> questions to the originator instead of assuming. You know what assuming does to others and I sure don't want to go there with a lecture.

            That is all, and I apologize if they got it all wrong when implementing.
            Vicious! Approach with Caution!
            Because some noob has called me such and had said it so
            Mobile Strike Player: Base 1102 / Com 550 / 672* Power / VIP 1300
            Dissidia Final Fantasy - Opera Omnia: Rank 60

            Comment


            • #7
              It is not your fault that they implemented junk. You expect competence of professionals, not retardism.

              I do the same with my support staff: I ask them to do something, I expect them to do it CORRECTLY, according to procedures and common sense. I don't get into the details of what they are supposed to do. I expect them to be COMPETENT in their job. That is what they are paid to do.

              If they do NOT do it correctly, they will get a please explain and if the reply is not adequate, they get hauled over coals. ESPECIALLY if they try to push the blame. I show no mercy then. If they admit to their fault and try to fix it, then they get a slap on the wrist, if even that.

              We all know which way R2 went with our please explains.

              Comment


              • #8
                you guys are wasting your time. they didnt even bother to fix the forum login, and you expect them to fix the game?
                Originally posted by Wraithraiser
                Welcome to R2 forums. Where quality is nonexistent and quantity is only measured in the number of whines a single day can produce.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Centaur0001 View Post
                  P-J-J, I am trying to take in your response and think you likely have some points here.

                  What we're also missing is the devil in the code. How much overhead was added in patches for things like data mining. How much are players being taken to task and pushed back upon when it's hidden stuff we really need to be rid of? That's also at play here.

                  Let's have someone respond to whatever is going on with development. But, there's so much that's been wrong with the game for a while now, rolling out new features nobody can even see is just sad. We, players and gamerunners, all just deserve so much better.

                  Overdevelopment is now the bug. That's why I'm reporting it here. It needs fixing.
                  There is always change management in place - if you accept changes from development, you are the decision owner.
                  If you had forgotten to test, your failure.

                  Originally posted by AdaJames View Post
                  It is not your fault that they implemented junk. You expect competence of professionals, not retardism.

                  I do the same with my support staff: I ask them to do something, I expect them to do it CORRECTLY, according to procedures and common sense. I don't get into the details of what they are supposed to do. I expect them to be COMPETENT in their job. That is what they are paid to do.

                  If they do NOT do it correctly, they will get a please explain and if the reply is not adequate, they get hauled over coals. ESPECIALLY if they try to push the blame. I show no mercy then. If they admit to their fault and try to fix it, then they get a slap on the wrist, if even that.

                  We all know which way R2 went with our please explains.
                  We have more than 1 development group - 7road and the one who developed the R2Games portal and JavaScript, which you mean, those untested?

                  Support has no rules, simply it forwards upstream, but which upstream is a crucial question as more bugs as more lag now in JavaScript, which is shared development.
                  More bugs means more support = more people. R2Games still feels that 6 people is enough?

                  Originally posted by Arlad View Post
                  you guys are wasting your time. they didnt even bother to fix the forum login, and you expect them to fix the game?
                  No RfC means no test cases and result is unpredictable.
                  Last edited by P-J-J; 11-01-2015, 04:31 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    R2 specified the extra Java stuff that is not strictly required for the game. Things like Google Analytics are not put in by 7Road for fun. R2 must have specified it, especially if it wasn't there in the first place.

                    People like to push the blame to 7Road, but in business, there is not a single company who can tell its customer to "either love whatever **** they have been given or lump it" and survive. It is always when the customer say, "Jump", the supplier asks, "How high?" unless it violates laws that can get the supplier in trouble.

                    7Road may have created the programme, but at the end of the day, it is R2 which specified what is added to or taken out of said programme. 7Road is supplying a product to a spec, and it is R2 which sets the specs. R2 is the one who is at fault, not 7Road, for all the lag troubles that you have identified, and for all the missing features and pricing of balens and whatnot.

                    Remember, when you buy balens, it is NOT 7Road who gets the money. It is R2. 7Road would NOT care how much R2 sells the balens for nor would they get a say in it.

                    EVERY SINGLE ISSUE that R2 has pushed on to 7Road is NOT a problem created by 7Road. It is created by R2, either through its specifications or its pricing structure. R2 may try to muddy the waters and bring in all sorts of esoteric terms and legalese, but a little bit of logic completely annihilates their obfuscation, just as a little bit of logic tend to destroy all other smoke and mirrors lies being peddled as "truth".
                    Last edited by AdaJames; 11-02-2015, 01:05 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AdaJames View Post
                      R2 specified the extra Java stuff that is not strictly required for the game. Things like Google Analytics are not put in by 7Road for fun. R2 must have specified it, especially if it wasn't there in the first place.

                      People like to push the blame to 7Road, but in business, there is not a single company who can tell its customer to "either love whatever **** they have been given or lump it" and survive. It is always when the customer say, "Jump", the supplier asks, "How high?" unless it violates laws that can get the supplier in trouble.

                      7Road may have created the programme, but at the end of the day, it is R2 which specified what is added to or taken out of said programme. 7Road is supplying a product to a spec, and it is R2 which sets the specs. R2 is the one who is at fault, not 7Road, for all the lag troubles that you have identified, and for all the missing features and pricing of balens and whatnot.

                      Remember, when you buy balens, it is NOT 7Road who gets the money. It is R2. 7Road would NOT care how much R2 sells the balens for nor would they get a say in it.

                      EVERY SINGLE ISSUE that R2 has pushed on to 7Road is NOT a problem created by 7Road. It is created by R2, either through its specifications or its pricing structure. R2 may try to muddy the waters and bring in all sorts of esoteric terms and legalese, but a little bit of logic completely annihilates their obfuscation, just as a little bit of logic tend to destroy all other smoke and mirrors lies being peddled as "truth".
                      We all tend to think in terms of our culture, the Chinese business culture is a little bit different than to perfect U.S. legal proof one.

                      7road.com is technically the core game developer and publisher
                      Proficient City is worldwide English version distributor
                      R2Games, Kabam, Ennia Games ... are companies we see as end users to operate with

                      Now a little bit of Chinese business culture:
                      Some of them play more than one role in the chain - for example Kabam points to their customers it is R2Games who provide game to them; 7road has its own players; R2Games is proud for their new portal development

                      So instead of looking for companies, we should focus on the decision chain:
                      - inconsistencies in the logic of the game belongs to the product team of the clone, whenever it is located, ie team which decide which features will go to our clone or 2nd level clone
                      - inconsistency in the application belongs to the architecture team of our Divine Comedy/Wartune clone, ie team which decided how game, payment system etc will work together
                      - inconsistencies in translation (Hera vs Hecate, Guard vs Eudemon ...) belongs to the English translator team
                      - inconsistencies in payment structure belongs to the valuation team, ie team which decided what should be paid and at which cost

                      We have the roles, so who is in charge?
                      - with support it is easy - in my case it's R2Games Service Desk people - in case of Kabam it is Kabam etc; and I really do not care how many layers they have until it is resolved
                      - with Community services again easy - R2Games poor community portal service management
                      - with payment it is again easy, I see R2Games accounts; I really do not care how they split it with rest of the game team
                      - with deployment (maintenance upgrades) it is again R2Games who is in charge due to Consumer Law (yes some tickets are complaints in term of consumer law) and it is their issue if they deliver buggy environment as they get more complaints

                      But wait no of the first 4 roles? Not really:
                      - R2Games accepted to provide me Wartune without Auction House; so they are in charge of product management, even they have limited change control over the clone
                      - R2Games provide me the application; so they are in charge of feature realization and testing including architecture, no matter that realization is done in other teams and companies
                      - R2Games provide me English version and as US company they should know English; again their QA issue
                      - R2Games wants money from me; so they either accept a/o co-design the pricelist

                      So it is easy - R2Games is in charge; I do not care how many things they can co-decide and how many they accepted from other's decision, they are provider to me
                      - and their business practice is similar to companies that first plunder nature and do not care about ecology - money first, who care about support/consistency/tests etc

                      My Chinese friend who talked to some of the above mentioned companies pointed to me the interesting point:
                      - what happened to Wartune that 5.0 and 5.1 are less tested, performance heavy etc?
                      I can add additional: Why 5.1 was released if we already know that on test servers are new features that will arrive these days? Was it tested? Or simply bypassed as "simple patch"

                      The answer is very simple - clone is more deviated from Chinese version (eudemons versus kids, dungeons not present on Chinese clone and vice versa) while nobody changed the procedures and added resources for performance, regress and UX testing, no UAT, integration tests for "patch" releases, no scenarios for feature tests.

                      So we got deployed versions that correspond to the new clone product team design, but not supported by testing and architecture/integration. Neither valuation (still gem scrolls in Wheel of Prosperity rewards), nor translation (I like the green windows without text; or text that do not reflect changes in event schema - remember "Advanced Sepulchre is not supported" text addition) support it either.

                      So product clone design is an issue:
                      - new features not present in other clones, with poor design (it seems to me "idea" is followed by coding, no architecture or design check; some looks unfinished so we can expect feature nerfing/completion in a few months)
                      - feature blocking
                      - no testing scenarios and manuals (who knows how fused sylphs work, especially the fire/electro in Sky Trail - programmers only?)
                      - no clone 2nd level support team (I was always pointed directly to developers, which are 3rd level)
                      - no clone test team and environment simulating WAN for performance, regress and UX tests
                      - issues in release strategy (so 5.1 was launched bypassing delayed features on test servers)

                      The clone will be dead if product management will not be supported by better clone test, support and valuation teams, or the features will again converge back to other clones, so their testing can be reused. In China we see simplification of features as development team is moving to mobile games area and new games, but clone product team still create RfC without thinking in full delivery process.

                      So it is not overdevelopment, but clone is overdesigned without having supportive environment in place - 2nd line support, architecture/integration, regular QA/testing and consistent valuation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I read until I saw the part on you trying to lecture me on Chinese business practices.

                        1. ONE guy telling you something does not make you an authority on the subject. It does not even make what he tells you right. He could be biased or having one over the guai-lo chun-choi.

                        2. China is 1.4 BILLION people. To say that ONE business model fits all of that is ludicruous in the extreme.

                        3. The Chinese people are not like Westerners. They do not complain like mad. You don't get the model that R2 subscribes to, namely: a) you make a complaint, b) they say "OK, we'll fix it", but they don't fix it, c) you complain again, d) they say they are working on it, but nothing happens, e) you complain again, f) they give some sort of excuse, if at all. Meanwhile, 3 years have passed. The Chinese MAY complain once, MAYBE twice. And then THEY WALK WITH THEIR FEET. You have lost them. Forever. And they will badmouth you to everyone who will listen.

                        4. What I said have little to do with legal protections, but everything to do with good business sense, which is even more important with the Chinese in the light of 3.

                        5. Stop trying to lecture an Asian on Asian business practices, you condescending dolt.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AdaJames View Post
                          I read until I saw the part on you trying to lecture me on Chinese business practices.

                          1. ONE guy telling you something does not make you an authority on the subject. It does not even make what he tells you right. He could be biased or having one over the guai-lo chun-choi.

                          2. China is 1.4 BILLION people. To say that ONE business model fits all of that is ludicruous in the extreme.

                          3. The Chinese people are not like Westerners. They do not complain like mad. You don't get the model that R2 subscribes to, namely: a) you make a complaint, b) they say "OK, we'll fix it", but they don't fix it, c) you complain again, d) they say they are working on it, but nothing happens, e) you complain again, f) they give some sort of excuse, if at all. Meanwhile, 3 years have passed. The Chinese MAY complain once, MAYBE twice. And then THEY WALK WITH THEIR FEET. You have lost them. Forever. And they will badmouth you to everyone who will listen.

                          4. What I said have little to do with legal protections, but everything to do with good business sense, which is even more important with the Chinese in the light of 3.

                          5. Stop trying to lecture an Asian on Asian business practices, you condescending dolt.
                          Ada,

                          business culture and business practice are two different things. I spoke about culture.

                          1) Any national culture imposes company culture. If you ever work with companies from US, Germany, France, Russia, China and Japan, all they differ in business culture, even if managers are from other nations.

                          This is why I am telling that R2Games USA is Chinese-culture company and not U.S. one.

                          2) Returning to business practice - I mentioned it concerning R2 practice of depletion without investments to better service, community work, testing etc - but this practice is common to any management style of "quick cash" style companies, no matter if they are of Romanian, Chinese, Azeri or Somali culture.

                          This practice is good for temporary gain of cash, but soon or late such company has to decide if they leave market, or invest those money to better service.

                          3) Back to the topic - the clone is overdesigned without required supportive services including capacity from the development team. R2Games business practice is low investment for big money (focus on whales and Star-area games), so we cannot expect from them more these days, until they decide if they want to continue with Wartune clone seriously or not and if they want, how fast they build required supportive eco-system (that can be shared with other games they resell or plan to resell).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Arlad View Post
                            you guys are wasting your time. they didnt even bother to fix the forum login, and you expect them to fix the game?
                            ROFLMAO! I thought that I was just special in my run around the bases just to get to home so I could log into the forum!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              So, to simplify this:

                              When something is wrong in game a bug, a mistake made in game that makes us not get what we should get,
                              payed for balens but not received it.

                              It is all R2's fault?

                              If so, how come R2 tells us that the Devs dont allow R2 to interfere in the compensations etc
                              because of the balance in the game?

                              Hmmm, there is a dead rat around here somewhere!

                              Someone is LYING us right to our face !

                              I just felt that R2 was a front for 7Roads and 7Roads was hiring R2 to protect them LoL SOrry Sarcasm
                              Best Regards,

                              BrooBee

                              Character Type: Mage
                              Guild: Ragnarok
                              Server: S213 - Felmarsh
                              Platform: R2Games
                              Client: Mini Client


                              P.S Yes, I am a very angry customer as of now, since I have been treated like a dead ant in the woods by the DEVS D.S

                              Comment

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