A Balance Discussion

[R215361131]

ok im done here your not really interested in debating, gl in your 'debate'

[HELLRAlSER]

ok im done here your not really interested in debating, gl in your 'debate'

I spent 8 hours debating, and you think am not interested? Funny but i think you mostly don't understand what am saying

[Reylinna]

It wasn't a 40k BR difference. lol. We were all within 5k BR trying to figure out if angel is a useless astral or not. Didn't seem to really make any difference so I ditched it and went back to my preferred astrals.

I've played and enjoyed all three classes, they all take a little different style, but I don't see them being severely deficient with the others, just need to be built right. Almost half the top 10 are archers on my server. I just think they tend to be a bit weaker low level and harder to build.

Edited to add: some of the 40k+ BTS heals I've seen are in tok Nm where they have acceptable defense. lol

[HELLRAlSER]

It wasn't a 40k BR difference. lol. We were all within 5k BR trying to figure out if angel is a useless astral or not. Didn't seem to really make any difference so I ditched it and went back to my preferred astrals.

I've played and enjoyed all three classes, they all take a little different style, but I don't see them being severely deficient with the others, just need to be built right. Almost half the top 10 are archers on my server. I just think they tend to be a bit weaker low level and harder to build.

Edited to add: some of the 40k+ BTS heals I've seen are in tok Nm where they have acceptable defense. lol

i see, have u ever seen 100k heal? cause i did.

The problem with BTS is this: "it takes away a turn for half assed damage that wont be enough to kill and half assed heal that wont be enough to save you."

Being top 10 is completely irrelevant, cause top 10 usually means i just have cashed more, not a good balance debate basis. Our top 10 its split equally i would say but among them at same BR range, Archers lose to both the knights and mages.

If you think GA doesnt make any difference, then you shouldn't have a problem with REDUCING archer crit by 20% and adding a 20% chance for 100% crit. Heck if GA makes no difference this weakens archers. So i assume i have your support on "nerfing" archers?

[Littlelyseria]

i see, have u ever seen 100k heal? cause i did.

The problem with BTS is this: "it takes away a turn for half assed damage that wont be enough to kill and half assed heal that wont be enough to save you."

Being top 10 is completely irrelevant, cause top 10 usually means i just have cashed more, not a good balance debate basis. Our top 10 its split equally i would say but among them at same BR range, Archers lose to both the knights and mages.

If you think GA doesnt make any difference, then you shouldn't have a problem with REDUCING archer crit by 20% and adding a 20% chance for 100% crit. Heck if GA makes no difference this weakens archers. So i assume i have your support on "nerfing" archers?

100k+ heals are easy even for an archer with iris but the point is, BTS dmg scalates pretty damn good as your patt goes up + raise its talent making it 1 of the
best skills for archer survival wise, when u have 40k patt and can heal 40k+ with a skill that will do more dmg of what u heal then u'll change your point of view on
it.

You mentioned BTS is a waste of a turn but restoration does 0 dmg, yes with talents the heal spikes up but in exchange of a big cooldown (29 seconds at lv10 isnt a joke)and as i said 0 dmg.

I agree the sacrifices (im a mage) for a mage or knight to go from WD to crit are big unless u have a big pocket and can offset losing the refines/gems with mounts and other stuff, i played around 3 months with crit and its pretty fun but went back to WD10 for more stable dmg, same WB money (literally the same) and more
survability since EGA isnt a life saver but it helps along the added PDEF from refines/gems.

[bakuryuuha]

If you think bloodthirsty sucks then sorry but you are nothnig but a noob.

I'm a noob too then. I think its a useless skill. Waste one turn for a pathetic heal that would've been negated in the next turn or waste one turn and take more dmg than you healed. Compared to a knight's block heal and a mage's heal, they can solo dungeons with those heals. Archers can't solo with bloodthirsty unless they're heavily cashed. Also the healed amount is computed on the base dmg dealt and not the crit dmg. So even if you crit, it counts 80% of the dmg amount used to compute the crit amt you did. Which makes it a pathetic healing amount still. At high lvls, 40k hp is really very little. Its not even 1/4 of my hp...if I spread it out over the 29s CD with maxed talent, 40k won't even last 3 turns. Where as knights have chance to heal on every hit they take, so if you add it all up, the amount healed by knights is higher than amount healed by archer with 1 bloodthirsty strike over the same time period. So it really is a useless skill as it is now.

[bakuryuuha]

Does guardian angel even work? Cause I had a lvl 7 one once to try it out and didn't really notice any difference in how fast I died and how many times they crit vs without it.

Anyways I have to disagree with BTS not being worth it. Watching it heal for 40k+ doesn't really imply broken IMO. lol. Not to mention it is doing damage while healing vs just healing like a mage does.

All the classes have different strengths/weaknesses. Archers to me have always been the middle ground class. Lighter on the defense, but you can get a more balanced defense with them as opposed to the knights and mages. Its all in how you choose to build.

Actually its not easy for archers to build on defense and hp to increase survivability. Their dmg output on the other hand is almost the same as the other classes despite the crits. So it isn't the highest dmg class yet paper thin and easy to kill. If they add a passive to allow us to dodge dmg on top of the dodge from illusion astral like a 20% chance to dodge attacks at maxed passive, then I'd agree that we'll be placed in the middle ground. As it is now, we're on a lower lvl than the other 2 classes rather than the middle of both of them...

[Zorich]

Sorry but he does not. I have seen mages go from almost dead to full with resto, I seen mages heal with heal rune more than 30k (they do heal 8% more). Mages gets 20% more mdef also apart from the extra healing. And sorry to dissapoint Iris is not that good for pvp outside of team setups. In a 1vs1 situation with troops, LB+RoF+Meteor+thunderer+resto. What more you could possibly want? Clear troops in 2 aoe bloodrune -> sylph gg.

I disagree. I'm a L80, 145k BR Mage, and even with RoF + Meteor I don't clear equal BR Opponents L80 Troops. Lower BR by 10k or more, sure, but not the other 140k+ BR players. And MDef is kinda useless except in a Mage Battle. I'd take 20% HP over 20% MDef any day of the week. 20% HP helps in every fight. The MDef only matters in Mage Duels.

If you don't think Iris isn't good, you haven't used it right. I have both a L80 Mage and L80 Knight. That L80 Knight always uses his Iris in PvP and routinely wrecks equal BR Archers, and takes most equal-BR Mages. The key in both cases is being up front and not clearing troops, surviving for the awaken. Let those enemy troops passively heal you. My Knight gains about 5500 HP per block, and blocks about 2/3 attacks. That's 10K+ Healing every round on average (assuming the player hits me too) - WAY better than a Sunto. I lead with Chaos, Ultimate, Seal (just to target player), Ultimate, Bubble, Slasher + Awaken + Heal Rune, Tsunami (clear Blood Rune), Rain Dance, Delphic, Warm Spring & unawaken, EDD (This will kill most Mages at 50%, and most Archers didn't survive the pet Delphic).

Very few Mages have the ability to do the 250K Damage it takes to put him down before the Rain Dance. And then they've got another 100k + HP to cut through (assuming he was low), and then take a Delphic in the face and watch him Heal again for 80k or so. The only thing that out-damages the Iris's Heals are vastly superior pets with MAtk. Orange Apollo or 3-Star+ Purple Gaia can do the 1-shot damage on a Delphic Crit @ 50%, but that's about it.

Heck even remove the stun rate and make it damage properly would be enough in a proper aoe would be enough.

I'd be for that, but I don't think most Archers would be. That Stun rate is crucial in Group PvP.

Its bad, cause if u cant burst a mage down... you simply cant kill him. A PVP doesnt last that long to actually make it heal "less" unless its between mages!!!

Yes and no. It's very difficult to burst a Mage down before 50%. However, at 50%, a Delphic Sniper or EDD on a Crit will 1-shot most. Mages are always in the back ranks as well, so an AP can keep pummeling him after the 1st Lunatic, making Resto useless because it'll target the Troops that are -50% HP already.

Problem is, after 1min mark its not an archer or mage or knight fight, its a sylph fight, at that point archer is already half dead and killed by any first sylph skill with the increased damage, while mage go almost full in the sylph fight if he resto just before sylph turn.

This I generally agree with, except for Knights who have innate block-healing and huge HP. Going back to my Knight, he's got all L6 and L7 MDef Gems and L53 Engraving. His MDef is over 22K and his PDef 26K. He can take a lot of Mage damage compared to Knights who go all PDef. Honestly, the thing he has the most trouble with are enemy Knights w/ better Pets.

[kimwong]

BT shot, before I also think it is useless as with so long CD and heal not much (before getting the talent)

but after getting that talent, it is nice for PvE aspect, ward tower, spire, etc

I can say everyone have their own opinions about this skill, no need to say others are noobs if they don't use it, maybe they have different combinations that even better than BT shot~

[HELLRAlSER]

100k+ heals are easy even for an archer with iris but the point is, BTS dmg scalates pretty damn good as your patt goes up + raise its talent making it 1 of the
best skills for archer survival wise, when u have 40k patt and can heal 40k+ with a skill that will do more dmg of what u heal then u'll change your point of view on
it.

You mentioned BTS is a waste of a turn but restoration does 0 dmg, yes with talents the heal spikes up but in exchange of a big cooldown (29 seconds at lv10 isnt a joke)and as i said 0 dmg.

As i explained earlier, sylphs are not really relevant to the discussion, since they are available to any class. The damage of this skill when MAX talented is 143%. Yes after 10 talents, it deals 143% damage, single target, with a healthy rage cost, on a class were rage comes hard and a CD still long enough to nor really use twice. It has some merits in pve but not in real pvp (real as, same br opponents).

I agree the sacrifices (im a mage) for a mage or knight to go from WD to crit are big unless u have a big pocket and can offset losing the refines/gems with mounts and other stuff, i played around 3 months with crit and its pretty fun but went back to WD10 for more stable dmg, same WB money (literally the same) and more
survability since EGA isnt a life saver but it helps along the added PDEF from refines/gems.

At least i dont have to argue basic common sense here

[HELLRAlSER]

I disagree. I'm a L80, 145k BR Mage, and even with RoF + Meteor I don't clear equal BR Opponents L80 Troops. Lower BR by 10k or more, sure, but not the other 140k+ BR players. And MDef is kinda useless except in a Mage Battle. I'd take 20% HP over 20% MDef any day of the week. 20% HP helps in every fight. The MDef only matters in Mage Duels.

I dont see how a 145k BR lvl80 has stronger troops than a 135k br lvl80. But what you are saying here is, Mages are not players you gonna meet in PVP therefor mdef is useless?

If you don't think Iris isn't good, you haven't used it right. I have both a L80 Mage and L80 Knight. That L80 Knight always uses his Iris in PvP and routinely wrecks equal BR Archers, and takes most equal-BR Mages. The key in both cases is being up front and not clearing troops, surviving for the awaken. Let those enemy troops passively heal you. My Knight gains about 5500 HP per block, and blocks about 2/3 attacks. That's 10K+ Healing every round on average (assuming the player hits me too) - WAY better than a Sunto. I lead with Chaos, Ultimate, Seal (just to target player), Ultimate, Bubble, Slasher + Awaken + Heal Rune, Tsunami (clear Blood Rune), Rain Dance, Delphic, Warm Spring & unawaken, EDD (This will kill most Mages at 50%, and most Archers didn't survive the pet Delphic.

Very few Mages have the ability to do the 250K Damage it takes to put him down before the Rain Dance. And then they've got another 100k + HP to cut through (assuming he was low), and then take a Delphic in the face and watch him Heal again for 80k or so. The only thing that out-damages the Iris's Heals are vastly superior pets with MAtk. Orange Apollo or 3-Star+ Purple Gaia can do the 1-shot damage on a Delphic Crit @ 50%, but that's about it.

I have used it right. Its good choice on Knights, never said it wasnt, cause of their innate tankiness and teri +20% heal received. But NOT for an archer outside team setups. Naturally you fight pets with pets, and to deal with iris you need gaia.

I'd be for that, but I don't think most Archers would be. That Stun rate is crucial in Group PvP.

They only even sheldom use the skill cause they have nothing else to do when they have rage rune. Most of them they just rather spam lunatics and an occasional scatter.

Yes and no. It's very difficult to burst a Mage down before 50%. However, at 50%, a Delphic Sniper or EDD on a Crit will 1-shot most. Mages are always in the back ranks as well, so an AP can keep pummeling him after the 1st Lunatic, making Resto useless because it'll target the Troops that are -50% HP already.

Delphic sniper doesnt 1 shot anyone at 50%, on the contrary when you go at 50% and you still an archer you will probly be 1 shotted your self thnx to your not existant def and you non existant ability to heal, by a sylph skill.

[Zorich]

Actually its not easy for archers to build on defense and hp to increase survivability. Their dmg output on the other hand is almost the same as the other classes despite the crits. So it isn't the highest dmg class yet paper thin and easy to kill. If they add a passive to allow us to dodge dmg on top of the dodge from illusion astral like a 20% chance to dodge attacks at maxed passive, then I'd agree that we'll be placed in the middle ground. As it is now, we're on a lower lvl than the other 2 classes rather than the middle of both of them...

An Archer's Damage output over time is better than any other class. Knights have the worst AoE to get rid of troops, if they take that route. If they're content to let troops heal them, their Delphic are pointless because Troops are often in the front rank. Archers get the bonus of a stackable to 10% damage buff as well, which is an after calculation boost, so it's like making AP go from 200% (w/ QTE) to 220%. It's making Delphic Sniper go from 345% to about 380%.

As a Mage I've been the target of Lunatic - AP + Rage Rune - AP - Lunatic - AP - Bloodthirst + Awaken + Heal Rune. At this point I've used my Sunto and my Resto + Heal Rune after the 2nd Lunatic because I could finally target myself. I'm still down around 1/2 HP. I don't carry BL because I need RoF and Thunderer, and my Rage Regen bites w/o LB. I won't have Resto available again for 3 Turns (29s CD) when the Awaken happens, and between Bloodthirst and the Rune, he healed himself > 50K HP and is near full. I'm done at this point.

If an Archer has the Starting Rage to pull that off, and the L6 Rage Rune, he's a Mages worst nightmare. Because it almost doesn't matter what pet he uses... Apollo - ok, Self-Heal to top-off, Delphic, Transform Out and Rage + Delphic Sniper. Dead Mage. Iris? Rain Dance, Delpihc, Transform out + Delphic Sniper. Gaia? the Mage is likely too low to withstand a Jupiter's Wrath & Thunder Wave. Hades? Devour Soul tops off the Archer HP and the Mage doesn't survive the Endless Night.

The point being, no other class has the potential to do 159% + 220%* + 220%* + 175%* + 220%* + 132%* + 110%* = 1,236% Damage, all which is hitting the enemy Player. (* Includes continual 10% Damage Bonus after 1st 5 Crits) On the chance the Troops are still there after the 2nd Lunatic (a likely possibility with Sunto down), the Bloodthirsty will hit the Troops, getting more HP to the Archer, while the Awaken clears the troops, making the Player take 1,104% Damage over that period, with the Archer Healing somewhere in the vicinity of a 96% Equiv (80% of 120% vs. an enemy w/ Troop Defense). Or replace the Blood w/ a Straight AP and get another 220% on the player for a total of 1,324% Damage w/ no Healing.

As a Mage, the best I can do targeting the player is 167% (Meteor) + 165% (RoF) + 100% (Chaos/Amnesia/Mire) + 167% (Meteor) + 110% (LB) + Thunderer (320%) +110% (LB) + 100% (Awaken) = 1,239%, which factors in NO Healing. If I choose to Heal and get a Thunderer off I need to replace out a 110% (LB) and the 100% (Chaos/Amnesia/Mire) with a Rage at some point, bringing my Damage total to 1,029% Damage w/ a Resto. A Sunto would drop it down to 919% Damage, assuming it replaced a LB. And now, the final and most important piece, the Innate Crit Boosts Archers receive give them anywhere from a 10% to 25% higher Crit Rate - let's call it a 15% Median of higher frequency of Critical Hits. Being Crit approximately doubles damage at the high end, you're talking about 15% more damage throughout the progression on top of those existing Skill Bases. So factoring out the equivalences of Crit Damage, you're looking at a potential of nearly 300% more damage the Archer can produce Prior to and including the Initial Awakening that the Mage cannot where it comes to targeting the player.

[HELLRAlSER]

BT shot, before I also think it is useless as with so long CD and heal not much (before getting the talent)

but after getting that talent, it is nice for PvE aspect, ward tower, spire, etc

I can say everyone have their own opinions about this skill, no need to say others are noobs if they don't use it, maybe they have different combinations that even better than BT shot~

But i never said it doesnt have its merits in pve. But not in PVP, and that i guess its alright, but lets not pretent archer can heal in pvp.

[kanusti]

Am the noob that beats ppl in CW 30k br stronger. The noob that comes in top 3 of wb vs ppl with 10k more patt. The noob that goes at boss 18 on spire, on a team with average 100k br. The noob that wins fights even when sealed. The noob that goes over 100k br in 6months with 0 dollars used.

Am that kind of noob.

show me a team whit avage of 100k br who goes 18lvl in spire whit out juse balens on buy m,any buffs, if you is so strong like you say then you has beaten lvl 24 or high in necropolis, becuse if you get to 18 in spire then you easy go that long in necropolis.

[Reylinna]

Lol 100k BR getting to 18? Have to doubt that one as well. My team with full buffs coming out to 150-170k BR still sometimes doesn't even kill 17.

Anyways, I might have to test the angel astral out again, does anyone have any idea how much it actually works? Wouldn't illusion or deflection work as good or better? Just never aw guardian really do anything when we were testing it with dualing. Wanted to see if it would help in tok NM xD