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**speeds16** · 03-02-2013, 06:54 AM

I don't get why all those events are rogue-friendly?
Redemption: what, you can slayer sprint from book to book? I'm sure your mage has no problem with killing the mobs of it. Neither does any older server. Newer servers' rogues are very far behind on being able to do redemptions. Knights and rangers are the first to solo them, along with priests.
Training ground: unless vagabond keeps going non-stop no rogue will finish the lv101+ TG that easily. Knights still have that one.
Dungeons: again lacking the healing. The leech skill from Perfect frag isn't that much and the amount leeched is tiny compared to what you get hit for: lv120 HP pots are close to around half it (unless you're a mega-casher with 500k hp rogue)
Gotor: you only need a mage to cast balrog on the mob and no rogue can get near without being seen. And every shadow rogue knows he only lives in the shadows. Visible = dead.
World bosses: dominated by Mages: high devastating volley of attacks and the boss is dead before a rogue get's even near it. Assuming you're not the only 120 eidolon mage there.
Chambers of Fate: rogues can die on the gold buff room unless they have someone heal them. yes they can cloak and avoid people, but other than that it's just a pvp room for 5gold or gold honor badge?
Sengolia: This is a complete PvP arena, and shadow rogues are made for 1v1. Heck close to every shadow rogue on our server is a ****** because of it. But no rogue will have it easy once it starts to become 5 people in battle: too many aoe's to remain invisible and get in range.
Dragonspine: they can cloak and grab the DS, but they can't recloak once they got it. a shadow rogue without cloak is close to carrying a post-it on your back saying "shoot me".
Tamalan is in Priest's favor, Angel's blessing keeps going so they are harder to kill.

updating the list knowing this you'll see a lot more balance.

**nahykee** · 03-02-2013, 07:58 AM

i agree with you that's why i recommend Gm's to atleast change the Stun of the rogue's to Slow it's to OP for a rogue to have stun+hide to atleast having a chance to win over a rogue to a 1 v 1 battle or any event's

**SkyRaZoR** · 03-02-2013, 08:50 AM

it's simple...some people just can't stand the hide and stun, just like I can't stand the long ranged 1 shot kill most people do on me but you don't see me complaining.

**Lightlord01** · 03-02-2013, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by speeds16 View Post

I don't get why all those events are rogue-friendly?
Redemption: what, you can slayer sprint from book to book? I'm sure your mage has no problem with killing the mobs of it. Neither does any older server. Newer servers' rogues are very far behind on being able to do redemptions. Knights and rangers are the first to solo them, along with priests.
Training ground: unless vagabond keeps going non-stop no rogue will finish the lv101+ TG that easily. Knights still have that one.
Dungeons: again lacking the healing. The leech skill from Perfect frag isn't that much and the amount leeched is tiny compared to what you get hit for: lv120 HP pots are close to around half it (unless you're a mega-casher with 500k hp rogue)
Gotor: you only need a mage to cast balrog on the mob and no rogue can get near without being seen. And every shadow rogue knows he only lives in the shadows. Visible = dead.
World bosses: dominated by Mages: high devastating volley of attacks and the boss is dead before a rogue get's even near it. Assuming you're not the only 120 eidolon mage there.
Chambers of Fate: rogues can die on the gold buff room unless they have someone heal them. yes they can cloak and avoid people, but other than that it's just a pvp room for 5gold or gold honor badge?
Sengolia: This is a complete PvP arena, and shadow rogues are made for 1v1. Heck close to every shadow rogue on our server is a ****** because of it. But no rogue will have it easy once it starts to become 5 people in battle: too many aoe's to remain invisible and get in range.
Dragonspine: they can cloak and grab the DS, but they can't recloak once they got it. a shadow rogue without cloak is close to carrying a post-it on your back saying "shoot me".
Tamalan is in Priest's favor, Angel's blessing keeps going so they are harder to kill.

updating the list knowing this you'll see a lot more balance.

on new and developing servers..its those that spend the most cash that have the advantage. Nothing new about this and the goal of crystal spending was to give a time advantage on development among other things.

Once you get to a mature server and its about lv120 eiddys...thats were the advantage becomes clear cut.

Lets look at that:

Redemption: At final redemption stages...any eiddy can solo with these with an average degree of development and gear commensurate with time played.

Now on these redemptions its moving through 4 maps picking up part 1 in Heavenly and finishing pt2 in Necropolis. Thats alot of time involved , who moves the fastest?

TG: In the final of TGs... 101+ The new frag lets the rogue take down waves 7,8,9 which have the op training dragons that literally destroys everyone else. The frost takes down the lesser mobs. Wave 10 with the general, 99% of Knights and Mages lack the dps to kill b4 being killed. Not so with a rogue with the frag. They can kite and heal...wait for cool down to expire and with bol..its over pretty fast.

Gator: Its more a guild warfare thing..but at the end of the day... who gets the gator kill? The vast majority of the time its the rogue.

Chambers: its more luck on the net gain and rooms. But when it comes time to killing the huge hp bosses..nobody does it faster than a rogue with a new frag. Or the rogue pops in and lets another player do most of the work and then kills that player.

Sengola: A highend rogue can run down to the opposing crystal and get down to 50-10% before other highend players can make it to their opposing crystal. If you have 2 highend players defending..the rogue with gets quick movement speed can run down and get enough hits in to eventually where it down even if they die each run. The speed that they can move back into battle and run a new attack is stunning. If they are crystal rezzing, then there isnt even a delay involved. The proof is in the end result..the rogue kills the crystal 80% of the time compaired to all other classes. The avg sengola takes less than 60secs if eiidys are crystal diving for the senge buff. The dont need the honor or the xp..perhaps medals for a event..but mostly its the buff they are diving for.

Dragonspine: is different its the only event that isnt end game,who dominates free for all pvp..who ends up with the DS the vast majority of the time? A rogue name.

Tamalan: who has the passives ..so itsa toss with the priest or the mage

Worldboss and RB quests: At the high end, any party can complete this. The only boss the bring any difficulty is the FA quest. if you have 2 partys competing for the kill. The rogue party wins.

Dungeons: the two difficult dungeons are exehorn NM and Purg NM. The concept of farming dungeons is to do it on the cheap and be able to solo it. The goal is to make as much as you can and spend nothing to do it. Doing them fast is a big part to provide you with the time to do more.

The highend rogues complete a full Exehorn NM run solo before the totems expire.

Purg: Rogues can solo this on the cheap. They spam devoid the bosses. They dont care if they die..the master hammer from TT cures all that. If they die..they loose nothing in terms of cost. They dont need to use orbs or blessed stones. They dont need to recover hps after the dungeon rez...they just dive back in and devoid again. So they clear the dungeon with spaming devoid while you used a tone of mats and are still trying to bring down the 3rd boss.

Prior to eiddy..its who has developed the most who has the edge. At 113+ eiddy the rogues dominate as a class. We can argue but this class can do this to counter that....In the end..its the rogue who wins. All the other stuff is nice for cute debates.

If you ever had to do highend pvp with a op rogue...game mechanics favor this class by far. With movement speeds of 600-700+ flash games have an avg of 30 fps. This game has 32 fps. With a lag free connection...the game never updates fast enough to show you a rogues true location till the rogue has come to a stop. For that to happen we would need about 100 fps. When a rogue starts its attack run and you see the 1st damage splash.. its already done alot more hits that havent registered yet. If you are using Ice crystal...it seems the skill gltiches when fighting a rogue...you activated b4 you were dead? but you died and still have the cool down. What has happened is..the game doesnt update fast enough at your end. The server already knows your dead before you activated, just you didnt know it yet.

Now lets examine all things being equal. Equip 2 toons. A rogue and any other class at 120 eiddy with same gear/same mounts same amount of soul development etc

The rogue will eat your cookies.

Final game mechanics..everything maxed.

The rogue will eat your cake and cookies and drink your milk

The mechanics that allow for 2 to 1 attacks vs classes and being able to break the sound barrier on movement...have a major impact on this browser game.

The rogue gear has certain characteristics..useally lower attack compaired to their counter part because they get the 2 to 1 advantage.

We now have neutral gear..thats not class specific. Sperions and Diety wings that provide tremendous bonuses. When a rogue receives the same bonuses you do...the 2 to 1 advantage and the self bless like Bol really cause a massive multiplier effect. Skill shots that allow 10 attacks in 2secs...with those bonuses cause have a huge impact. Now throw in that every highend rogue hit is going to crit.

**talesat** · 03-02-2013, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by speeds16 View Post

I don't get why all those events are rogue-friendly?
Redemption: what, you can slayer sprint from book to book? I'm sure your mage has no problem with killing the mobs of it. Neither does any older server. Newer servers' rogues are very far behind on being able to do redemptions. Knights and rangers are the first to solo them, along with priests. Newer servers don't matter, its mid-end game that needs balancing.

Training ground: unless vagabond keeps going non-stop no rogue will finish the lv101+ TG that easily. Knights still have that one. 101+ is hard enough for anyone solo

Dungeons: again lacking the healing. The leech skill from Perfect frag isn't that much and the amount leeched is tiny compared to what you get hit for: lv120 HP pots are close to around half it (unless you're a mega-casher with 500k hp rogue) A high end rogue usually can out dps any other class by far and aside from purg (which they can cheat in a way) no dungeon bosses hit hard enough to really be a threat to any class so dps and mspeed = op

Gotor: you only need a mage to cast balrog on the mob and no rogue can get near without being seen. And every shadow rogue knows he only lives in the shadows. Visible = dead. So the rogue pops, stuns and kills mage - proceeds to kill gotor

World bosses: dominated by Mages: high devastating volley of attacks and the boss is dead before a rogue get's even near it. Assuming you're not the only 120 eidolon mage there. False. A mage and rogue with around the same stats and gear, the rogue will always win due to double attacks/increased aspeed which = tons of crits and more procs off equipment. Stepping into avernal should give it away that rogues are best dps in game without question.

Chambers of Fate: rogues can die on the gold buff room unless they have someone heal them. yes they can cloak and avoid people, but other than that it's just a pvp room for 5gold or gold honor badge? rogues can also stealth before entering a room letting them kill anyone they see fit before being seen. with pots and sitting they dont die in gold buff room

Sengolia: This is a complete PvP arena, and shadow rogues are made for 1v1. Heck close to every shadow rogue on our server is a ****** because of it. But no rogue will have it easy once it starts to become 5 people in battle: too many aoe's to remain invisible and get in range. So they wait until its 1:1, no big deal

Dragonspine: they can cloak and grab the DS, but they can't recloak once they got it. a shadow rogue without cloak is close to carrying a post-it on your back saying "shoot me". better dodge% and mspeed.

Tamalan is in Priest's favor, Angel's blessing keeps going so they are harder to kill. mspeed makes rogues harder to kill

updating the list knowing this you'll see a lot more balance.

Waiting for you to update the list so you can see a lot more unbalance

**talesat** · 03-02-2013, 03:38 PM

On a side note it sucks putting so much time and effort into a character when a new person can come in, make a rogue not spend a penny on the game and in less than half the time Ive playet become a threat to me

**speeds16** · 03-02-2013, 04:02 PM

Too long to quote, so I'll reply to Lightlord's post where Rogue is end-game overpowered by far:
S59 had a knight and a rogue, both maxed gear to +15 purgatory legendary, max pixie, max soul, max mount, max wings. Superior Frag VII +15.
The knight won constantly over the rogue. Rogues are simply lacking the defenses and hp-recovery to win a battle. The HP drain from Perfect frag does give them HP but not nearly enough to compensate for anyone attacking them. The HP leech skill is 17% of target's current hp, so only when the mob freshly spawned it'll get a huge benefit, but after a few ticks, it's just like any other normal hit.

**talesat** · 03-02-2013, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by speeds16 View Post

Too long to quote, so I'll reply to Lightlord's post where Rogue is end-game overpowered by far:
S59 had a knight and a rogue, both maxed gear to +15 purgatory legendary, max pixie, max soul, max mount, max wings. Superior Frag VII +15.
The knight won constantly over the rogue. Rogues are simply lacking the defenses and hp-recovery to win a battle. The HP drain from Perfect frag does give them HP but not nearly enough to compensate for anyone attacking them. The HP leech skill is 17% of target's current hp, so only when the mob freshly spawned it'll get a huge benefit, but after a few ticks, it's just like any other normal hit.

Comforting, to stand a chance against a rogue in PvP all we need is to be a max level/geared knight to win. Despite that, the rogue will still out dps any other class in avernal/ win event monsters that have default damage like the snowmen cause their aspeed, have an advantage at gotor cause they get a base 2x attack on top of their aspeed, crpyt cause their mspeed, hellstorm cause invisi, chambers cause invisi... etc.

**Lightlord01** · 03-02-2013, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by speeds16 View Post

Too long to quote, so I'll reply to Lightlord's post where Rogue is end-game overpowered by far:
S59 had a knight and a rogue, both maxed gear to +15 purgatory legendary, max pixie, max soul, max mount, max wings. Superior Frag VII +15.
The knight won constantly over the rogue. Rogues are simply lacking the defenses and hp-recovery to win a battle. The HP drain from Perfect frag does give them HP but not nearly enough to compensate for anyone attacking them. The HP leech skill is 17% of target's current hp, so only when the mob freshly spawned it'll get a huge benefit, but after a few ticks, it's just like any other normal hit.

I agree..the end game Knight and the end game rogue..the Knight has the advantage in one on one pvp. At that point counter skills and pets play a vital role. Knight vs Rogue (end game) Only the knight can challenge an end game rogue. Then again.. you cant do combat with a rogue that doesnt want to do combat. The Knight doesnt have that option. He hasto be ready to fight anytime the rogue attacks..The rogue can pick and choose the moment to engage.

Then there are the other 16 daily events that the Knight takes a back seat.

Here are some typical tactics for a rogue to use on a Knight. Patience. Switch Ls ..or move an extreme distance away so that the Knight doesnt have you in his ~ or tab lock for targeting.

Rogues control the op tempo and speed on the battlefield. They can easily kite away from a Knight.

The Knight has skills or doesnt have skills in effect at the time of engagement. If they do..Rogue waits for them to expire and attack during the cooldown. If they arent up..the rogue comes in from 1k distance or more using its aoe stun followed up by pet charm.The knight players screen doesnt update fast enough for this movement speed and attack. When the knight see that rogue the attack has already started. He just doesnt know it yet because the game doesnt update fast enough at his end at 32 fps. This gives the rogue 7-10 secs of free for all on the knight. Human reaction time is too slow to counter this when you dont know the exact moment its coming. If the knight isnt dead. retreat...and rinse and repeat. if the rogue is well rehearsed in these tactics depending on skill shots and bol...he will do about 40-50+ hits before the knight can retaliate if alive.

Now in group combat..just too many unknown variables to factor in...plus the other team has rogues too...

For the record.I have a pretty op machine and connection I play on. I7 Quad Core 16 gigs of DD3 1600 memory and using SSD drive for almost instant load time.

When a rogue flying in with over 700 movement unstealthed at edge of the screen distances....when u first see him on the screen moving....he has already started hitting you. Because your refresh time is too slow to keep up with his movement and attack speed.

Then there is the Feint attack. The Rogue does a deliberate fly by at max speed with no intentions of engaging. This test the Knights reaction time and gets them to trigger a skill prematurely. The rogue is never in any real danger because he is never where the knight thinks he is and the human reaction time factor. Once the knight has comitted a keyskill...the rogue attacks during the cooldown.

**(S14)Squintina** · 03-02-2013, 08:14 PM

I'm not going to argue over how wrong this is (and it is, but I don't want to get it).

But let's pretend the poster is right and the end game is better for rogues. Most people are not at endgame, and those who are at endgame aren't gonna abandon their toons to start a new rogue and instead will try to make up any weakness using soul and their own chinafrag, so why does it really matter?

**talesat** · 03-02-2013, 08:42 PM

[QUOTE=(S14)Squintina;416660]I'm not going to argue over how wrong this is (and it is, but I don't want to get it).

But let's pretend the poster is right and the end game is better for rogues. Most people are not at endgame, and those who are at endgame aren't gonna abandon their toons to start a new rogue and instead will try to make up any weakness using soul and their own chinafrag, so why does it really matter?[/QUOTE

Because it's not just end game, it's almost every event they have an advantage over every other class...

**sangofighter** · 03-02-2013, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Lightlord01 View Post

I have one message to aeria and R2. There are allot of games to play in the market now, allot of great games. Balance this or loose players

R2 runs CS, Aeria is just a partner site, they have almost no power at all in changing char stats or in-game events. Like their GMs, seems like they exist unlike here.

**(S14)Squintina** · 03-02-2013, 10:13 PM

[QUOTE=talesat;416692]

Originally posted by (S14)Squintina View Post

I'm not going to argue over how wrong this is (and it is, but I don't want to get it).

But let's pretend the poster is right and the end game is better for rogues. Most people are not at endgame, and those who are at endgame aren't gonna abandon their toons to start a new rogue and instead will try to make up any weakness using soul and their own chinafrag, so why does it really matter?[/QUOTE

Because it's not just end game, it's almost every event they have an advantage over every other class...

most of the events listed were solo events, so once again, what does it matter? Like why bother listing reds, tg, and dungeons when most people solo these? You either can or can't, it doesn't really matter if you do it 5 seconds faster than another person. This would only matter for true multiplayer events like avernal. Delivery was already advantaged to rogues before, so that still doesn't matter. Seng, the other classes will still get plenty of kills. Hellstorm has its own ways of disadvantaging rogues (small area, if there are many AOE players on, stealth isn't gonna help much - for those rogues that know how to force the stealth in Hellstorm.)

So apart from avernal, I really don't see much of an advantage.

**Lightlord01** · 03-03-2013, 01:55 PM

[QUOTE=(S14)Squintina;416742]

Originally posted by talesat View Post

most of the events listed were solo events, so once again, what does it matter? Like why bother listing reds, tg, and dungeons when most people solo these? You either can or can't, it doesn't really matter if you do it 5 seconds faster than another person. This would only matter for true multiplayer events like avernal. Delivery was already advantaged to rogues before, so that still doesn't matter. Seng, the other classes will still get plenty of kills. Hellstorm has its own ways of disadvantaging rogues (small area, if there are many AOE players on, stealth isn't gonna help much - for those rogues that know how to force the stealth in Hellstorm.)

So apart from avernal, I really don't see much of an advantage.

I took the events from the event tabs to be thorough. Do some have a greater impact than others..yes.

Where it really matters is the mind set of the developers

and the weekly maint events. HPS (Hits per second) seem to become the dominating theme with boss drops.

When a level 45 alt rogue's that were made just to get gmuts. can kill steal lv120 eiddys that arent rogues....

its a balance problem.

You dont need an endgame rogue to do fast fly in attacks with no stealth to dominate 1 on 1 pvp.

Once you can land consistant hits of 3-5% of the targets total hps (which means ,yes your patk can be lower than the targets pdef) and achieve aoe stun and have a gen 1 Teddy. 600-700 movement speed is achievable way before lv120 eiddy status. Next you need the passive skill the negates negative effects to counter those with some degree of soul development. Using dodge helps if you catch a lucky soul stun. Which breaks the attack . Then you just retreat and repeat.

Now that I just taught every wanna be rogue how to pvp an lv120 eiddy and when it gets used on you....dont blame me..blame the game.

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