Rogue Saga (Crystal Saga-Reloaded)

[sebastian1988]

You are so wrong, lmao. Rogueds lose to mages unless they have far superior gear and soul.
New frag is unfair? Yes, it is, because rogues get nerfed too much. The new passive is voiding dodge, you can't dodge them and if you have any idea about this game then you should know that dodge is the only defense a rogue has. They really need to nerf mages.

[speeds16]

Rogue's weakness is high hitrating on top of their defence. I have never seen a rogue survive a mage's crit, eventhough I see plenty of bloodpriests/am rangers/knights who do. The only way a rogue can survive is due to Dodge and usually Shadow-tree (our server only has 1 combat rogue that packs a punch and can still die to any ranger really without Vagabond)

[sebastian1988]

Yea, rogue have no real ranged attacks, even the combat tree with their aoe stun are way worse than any mage.
Decimation casts the animation of the skill before the stun occurs + you need to cast lightstream and then reversal before you can even use decimation. Both buffs (lightstream and reversal) can be debuffed by valley of death or by knights debuffs, and a combat rogue can die before stunning their opponents.

Mages on the other hand have attacks that can 1hit all rogues, their hitrate can go up to 70% (depends on guildskill / pvp gloves / light blessing) and with new new frag, even noobs can kill rogues by spamming attacks on them, why? Well, because you can't dodge the passive even when you dodge the attacks that cast the new passive.

If rogues had at least something like knights hook or any other useful aoe/long range attack, then they might be kinda op, but right now? Vagabond has 3 minutes cool down, you can't dodge the passives, all classes that know how to kite, can put a rogue in the situation that they can't land a single hit because rogues hitbox is too small.

Stealth? Well, that is 1 vs 1, not 1 vs many, and as soon as people cast their aoes, like ranger with their snakes, or mages with most of their skills, stealth won't work.
Also, I would be REALLY worried about the perfect frag skill for mages, all 3 seconds aoe dmg 30% of their matk, if that isn't pve only, then all other classes are screwed.

[Blinq]

^ wat speed and seb said

Slayers gloves+14 ( burn those majors) and Guild skill absolute control L3+, add sb Light with those...literally thats all you need to kill a rogue.

We only pro at some boss killin events, other than dat..we OP? No way lol, we squishy like water melons.

We literally suck in ladder!

For pvp a lil more advantageous to be a shadow rogue perhaps, but thats only for hiding Combats, one of which I am, are literally sitting ducks, movement speed is our only best defense incase dodge fails (which does almost everytime, even at 90%+).

Your concern is about endgame OP eido rogues, but really, after being bulldozed and 1 hitted from low level by other classes ( namely mages), isnt it fair that this class should get some advantage at endgame? And not all match the description you posted, only a handful perhaps with powerful aura (minimum maxed all nodes in void soul) can really mess up the so-called game mechanics. But hey, how many exactly have maxed void soul? Only a handful....why? cause its hella hard...

You could nerf us more, then perhaps playing this class could be considered useless in the future.

[sebastian1988]

We literally suck in ladder!

That I disagree with :P

As a stealth rogue, I can easily solo ladder all floors except 66 and 70, also rogues are one of the few classes that doesn't need much souldev to be good at ladder due to vagabond skill, but yea, other classes are faster / better in ladder as soon as their souldev gets higher, stupid op mages 1hitting floors, I wish I could do that lol >.>

[Blinq]

That I disagree with :P

As a stealth rogue, I can easily solo ladder all floors except 66 and 70, also rogues are one of the few classes that doesn't need much souldev to be good at ladder due to vagabond skill, but yea, other classes are faster / better in ladder as soon as their souldev gets higher, stupid op mages 1hitting floors, I wish I could do that lol >.>

Very op rogues like you could, ofcourse with stealth gets easier But its very slow, since Vaga has pro cd time

Normally rogues are really weak in ladder. In party first to die, especially in floor 58 and 59.

Perhaps I am not experienced enough, still learning. Even with 90% dodge (with vaga around 140%) ladder mobs still gets to hit , so for a combat it is really difficult.

[Stigmata]

Just my two cents as a lvl 120E rogue

Delivery: Rogue
(Not 100% true I would say Ranger (Speed) > Knight (Damage Mit and HP) > Rogue (Dodge) > Others (No real bonuses))
Escort: Rogue
(Valid to a point we have huge damage output to kill who ever is attacking but every class has slows of some sort to keep people off of the deliverer)
[/COLOR]Plunder: Rogue
(Agree a rogue popping out of no where can be a pain in the butt for the deliverer and the escort)
Blessed Bath:Priest
(Agree Priest> Others that dont have nimbus)
Redemption: Rogue
(Not True, Knight (Tank with some mean DPS)> Priest/Ranger (heals)> Rogue (Dodge is severly mitigated due to boss hit %)> Mage (limited defence))
Training Grounds: Rogue
(Not True I think all classes do just about as well in here. Rogue (High Single Target DPS and dodge {that doesnt work on bosses they have like 90% hit I rarely dodge with 93% dodge**) = Ranger (High Single Target DPS, Heals) = Knight (Tank, DPS) = Mage (God of AOE DPS) = Priest (Heals and AOES))
Dungeons: Rogue
(really not true, Bosses have insanely high hit (Knight (Tank, DPS)> Ranger (Heals and DPS) > Priest/Ranger (Heals and Mitigation) > Rogue (for minimal mitigation) > Mage (no real way to stay alive))
Seed of Life: Neutral
(duhhhh =P )
Crypt: Rogue
(Ranger (speed) > Others (No other class really has a speed boost, Yes rogue does but its basically useless we have better stuff to spend points on))
Guessing Game: Neutral
(duhhhh =P )
Avernal Realms: Rogue
(With new frag yes i will give you this one 100% i hit 5.5 billion damage the other night and that was without the 5% Sperion damage buff)
Gator: Rogue
(Again I agree 100% i have 413% attack speed)
Hellstorm:Rogue
(Hell Storm....... A game of survival note rogues cant use Stealth so we cant stun unless we are combat ( Knight (Tank DPS)> Combat Rogue (Stun/Dodge) >Ranger (Ranged DPS)>Mage (One SHOTS FTW), Stealth Rogue (DPS/ Dodge) > Priest)
World Bosses and RB Quests Rogue
Agree Rogues do tend to kill alot faster but I cant Tank nor solo FA boss like a Knight can probably because bosses have insane hit once again
Chambers of Fate Rogue
Stealth is nice I give you that
Sengola Rogue
Not true again everyone gets a hit boost while my dodge doesnt go up. Its a pretty level game for everyone.
Dragonspine Rogue
Not true again everyone gets a hit boost while my dodge doesnt go up. Its a pretty level game for everyone.
Nimbus: Rogue
??? how does a rogue get better with nimbus o.O unless you mean killing people who take it otherwise everyone is equal
LandGrab: Rogue
I might be a bit biased because we have some OP knights and Rangers on my server but Knights hit me once and I die and rangers just run around me in circles
Survival of the fittest:Neutral
not 100% true i would say ranger their Sheild removes debuffs otherwise yeah your right
Tamalan: [color=violet]Neutral
May not be true I dont have a Knight or ranger but does Knight Mitigation work or doest Rangers shield work in there? Because i know my dodge doesnt....

[(S14)Squintina]

I will add that although I disagree about the advantage/disadvantage discussion in the other events, I do agree rogues are too OP right now in avernal. That chinafrag's skill is letting even a lvl 80ish scion rogue who doesn't play that much and doesn't cash that much best (or at least constantly change ranks with) our top cashers who have better chinafrags, better soul, and better overall gear and pets and gems and are 120 eidolons - but aren't rogues. That's an extreme imbalance that needs to be addressed by either changing up the rogue chinafrag or the already mentioned solution of making avernal mobs immune to the new chinafrag effects just like they're immune to the sperion blood combo.

[Lightlord01]

I will add that although I disagree about the advantage/disadvantage discussion in the other events, I do agree rogues are too OP right now in avernal. That chinafrag's skill is letting even a lvl 80ish scion rogue who doesn't play that much and doesn't cash that much best (or at least constantly change ranks with) our top cashers who have better chinafrags, better soul, and better overall gear and pets and gems and are 120 eidolons - but aren't rogues. That's an extreme imbalance that needs to be addressed by either changing up the rogue chinafrag or the already mentioned solution of making avernal mobs immune to the new chinafrag effects just like they're immune to the sperion blood combo.

Certain things are from a subjective point of view....server/server maturity the class your playing and the detailed knowledge of how rogues skills and gear work.

When lv120 eiddy rogues across multiple servers feel they have a class advantage... they probably do. just because they havent all decided to post in the forum and say "we are the most op class in the game"for many reason thats probably wont happen.

Class advantage is just what it is. Thats not to be confused with every rogue no matter how under developed he maybe or stupid he maybe..winning everything. We all have players in every class that understand how to play their classes well and to their full advantage. We also have far more that do not. The majority of players at any give time are in a state of discovery and learning. Now a stupid player is a stupid player no mater what class they play and a toon cant make up for all the shortcomings that occur between ones 2 ears. Play Experiance gives a relative improvement over ignorance. But no experiance can cure someone of being at the bottom 1% of the logic scale. So lets not confuse the human condition with pure mathmatics. You do understand that all computer games are all math driven. No subjective view points and emotion or debate, changes how the math works. The only variation is how that math gets applied.

Even on non competitive events, move speed for playability sakes..is important. This influences what you do and how much time it takes to do it and whether you decide to do it at all.

[Dode.]

LOL ROGUES ARE DESIGNED IN EVERY GAME TO PUT OUT INSANE DPS. rogues get the shaft tho! dont you worry. soon as lvl 120 came out, my effectiveness DROPPED MAJORLY as the agi stats are handicapped as you lvl up. rogues in no way have an invincibility skill! the closest thing we have is vegabonds for the dodge rating .. but again 3 min cool down leaves us pretty vulnerable. as for the frag weap, as if that wont be disabled, i agree it shouldnt be active in avernal.

as for stuns... *** as a mage you have an instant cast stun! not to mention AOES at the arse. you are fully equiped to deal with any shadow rogues that come your way! since your class itself is perfectly able to defend from the very class you are slamming, maybe its the skill of the person behind the toon.

i ask you this, what is it you expect out of a rogue? a low def, non stunning, slow moving, low attack speed class with no way to heal themselves? and your cake, cookies and milk tasted awesome!

[Lightlord01]

I'm not going to argue over how wrong this is (and it is, but I don't want to get it).

But let's pretend the poster is right and the end game is better for rogues. Most people are not at endgame, and those who are at endgame aren't gonna abandon their toons to start a new rogue and instead will try to make up any weakness using soul and their own chinafrag, so why does it really matter?

Why does it matter?

This is an excellent question. I had to ponder this for a while to give you the answer you are actually seeking.

This involves psychology. I could writea 5 page narrative on why...but I dont think it would give you a satisfactory answer.

There are different game genres. Each has different expectations both real and perceived and vary by global markets. The mindset on a PvP orientated game is different than a PvE orientated game. Western markets prefer PvE vs Hardcore PvP. In asians markets its just the opposite.

The easiest way for me to answer your question is to have you answer it.



This is a non traditional approach to doing that and there is a tinge of humour involved.

Please answer the following to yourself and ponder your answers.

1. Why make your bed each day if you are just going to mess it up when you go to sleep that night. (provided you make you bed at all)

2. Why do PvP if a ______ is just going to kill you anyway?

a. rogue
b. mage
c. priest
d. ranger
e. knight
f. a guild
g. All the above

3. Why attack a mob thats just going to smoosh like a bug anyway?

4. Why upgrade gear when the odds are that you will fail way more than you will succeed?

5. Why be in a guild that gets beat by other guilds?

Somewhere in there you might find the answer to your question.

[Lightlord01]

LOL ROGUES ARE DESIGNED IN EVERY GAME TO PUT OUT INSANE DPS. rogues get the shaft tho! dont you worry. soon as lvl 120 came out, my effectiveness DROPPED MAJORLY as the agi stats are handicapped as you lvl up. rogues in no way have an invincibility skill! the closest thing we have is vegabonds for the dodge rating .. but again 3 min cool down leaves us pretty vulnerable. as for the frag weap, as if that wont be disabled, i agree it shouldnt be active in avernal.

as for stuns... *** as a mage you have an instant cast stun! not to mention AOES at the arse. you are fully equiped to deal with any shadow rogues that come your way! since your class itself is perfectly able to defend from the very class you are slamming, maybe its the skill of the person behind the toon.


i ask you this, what is it you expect out of a rogue? a low def, non stunning, slow moving, low attack speed class with no way to heal themselves? and your cake, cookies and milk tasted awesome!

Lets exclude group PvP scenarios because there are way too many variables involved. No 2 teams are ever comprised equally or in a free for all...your dealling with class on class as well as a multitiude of other factors.

Here is the bottom line on 1 on 1 PvP

The rogue determines when to initiate the engagement.

Only a silly rogue is going to stay in attack or cast range of his foe before he is ready to attack.


The rogue will never get hit unless just unlucky or serverly outmatched. There are certain counter strategies on both sides.

Due to game and tech mechanics of 32 fps max

Rogue movement an attack thread that needle.

The primary Mage aoe is very slow to cast. It is virtually impossible to hit a moving rogue with one. The game doesnt update fast enough and the cast time is too slow even if he is standing he still. The rogue can move soon as it cast and stun the mage before it hits.

The best a mage can do is target the spot he is standing in. If a rogue is patient. He will easily thread the casting time and deliver his stun.

I have adopted different techniques to counter that..which I wont share on this board. How effective they are..depend on the development in certain areas of the rogue.

Now on different note. I have no problem that a rogue is suppose to be a close contact dps killing machine. Thats the concept of the rogue.

The issue I have is the design of the events, daily and weekly. Cater to the rogues skill sets. its become about hps on event boss drops. Has there been post maint boss drops that havent catered to this? Ever? The only exceptions I know of are the invasion from Difficult level Exehorn mobs spawning.

Lets be serious..no matter what your take is on daily events. Is one class suppose to have a undeniable class advantage in 75%?60% 50% of the daily events? when there are other classes? I dont blame the players...I blame the developers for slanting it that way.

The basic expectation is that rogues are kinda like glass canons.

When you add neutral class gear with huge bonuses. Like sperion and the dieties wings and gem sets that have no class modifiers. The cannon becomes made of iron and not glass.

[(S14)Squintina]

Why does it matter?

This is an excellent question. I had to ponder this for a while to give you the answer you are actually seeking.

This involves psychology. I could writea 5 page narrative on why...but I dont think it would give you a satisfactory answer.

There are different game genres. Each has different expectations both real and perceived and vary by global markets. The mindset on a PvP orientated game is different than a PvE orientated game. Western markets prefer PvE vs Hardcore PvP. In asians markets its just the opposite.

The easiest way for me to answer your question is to have you answer it.



This is a non traditional approach to doing that and there is a tinge of humour involved.

Please answer the following to yourself and ponder your answers.

1. Why make your bed each day if you are just going to mess it up when you go to sleep that night. (provided you make you bed at all)

2. Why do PvP if a ______ is just going to kill you anyway?

a. rogue
b. mage
c. priest
d. ranger
e. knight
f. a guild
g. All the above

3. Why attack a mob thats just going to smoosh like a bug anyway?

4. Why upgrade gear when the odds are that you will fail way more than you will succeed?

5. Why be in a guild that gets beat by other guilds?

Somewhere in there you might find the answer to your question.

If I could submit this for best post ever, I totally would made my day.

[ragex0411]

I think rogues will fall off more and more as level cap is raised. At level 100 seemed they got max benefits from agility/soul and stuff. Now tho, with lvl 120 and in future higher and with no skills that increase there dodge/crit more i only see them becoming easier and easier to hit.

[Dode.]

seems to me this whole post is geared towards rogues ability to do events rather then the events not being tailored to to be fair to all classes. which i agree i do have an advantage, but the question remains how do you design an event that is class balanced?
make event mobs hit harder? but that would cater to knights/ priests... anyways you see my line of thought here. <---may lead more to requiring a party to complete said events.

the last event of note, had one of our more active players create an army of noob rogues, and put 2 at each event boss spawn point - to my surprise 2 noob rouges vs me won out every time!!!! dirty tactic maybe, but it shows ingenuity on how to balance the playing field.

as for the lvl 120 agi stats being handicapped per lvl gained, i have found that the higher lvl gear can balance that out again - 130% crit, 260+ attack speed, and 114% dodge rate (which i missed so much)