Bloodthirthsty Strike nerf for archers. Why?

[Rafaiel]

Why is there a need to ask? We just need to look at rankings and click on the archers.
100% of archers use crits and 0% use will destroyer.

If they'd rather use will destroyer, they would use it already.

Believe me I would do anything to have will destroyer and +10 rage when I attack. But sadly, I am an archer and I need crit for rage, Nothing stops a mage or a knight from getting crit values up.

Condorhero, did you just forget my point ↑↑↑↑... As an archer we only get 5 rage if we use arrow strike and an additional 5 rage if we land a critical hit. Archers gain 10 rage if they're lucky to get a crit with arrow strike. If I gained 10 raged per hit without the assistance of landing a critical hit I would definitely pick Will destroyer; However, as an archer I only get 5 rage using arrow strike and an additional 5 rage if we land a critical hit, this is why most archers choose to build crit. I hope I don't have to say this again.
If you want to vent out your rage against archers then do it in some other post. Don't try and change the subject again plz.

[Rafaiel]

well for one knights block got nerfed it isent that great anymore two sure we get a ton of rage but have u ever played a knight? the rage cost for our skills are rediculous so are the cooldowns even our basic skill has 5 second cooldown and three knights suck for WB if ur server has a first place knight must be a huge casher and useing vouchers and balens to buff/revive xD also at higher lvls shield kinda loses its use unless ur a big cashers archers/mages break it in 1 turn maybe 2 if ur HP is really high

OK athena69, good call, our top knight has over 70k, that's about 12k br higher than any1 else on the server. I doubt he uses ballens for the world boss, maybe vouchers, he has the highest patk and highest lvl will dest on our server, he doesnt need to use balens for the world boss. But your reply doesn't stay true with the original intention of this thread, plz stay on topic.

[darrylch]

Hmm.. let's see. give archer more buffs! dominate wb, necro, pve ah wait.. just give archer godmode buff!

[laba-laba]

Seriously, archer already heals better than mage. 80% damage > 75% restore, not counting crits! and archer crits hell a lot better than anyone.

[AyaSnow]

Seriously, archer already heals better than mage. 80% damage > 75% restore, not counting crits! and archer crits hell a lot better than anyone.

I believe the point of this post is that we don't get the 70% (not 80, btw) heal that the skill says we should get. And even if the math is just getting messed up, the wording is still wrong. I personally don't have a use for bloodthirsty strike - it barely heals, does less damage than other attacks, and costs a lot of rage. However, I would still like the wording in the attack description to match the reality. Really, I think that should be the case for any skill for any class. ^_^

[SinnedWill]

I believe the point of this post is that we don't get the 70% (not 80, btw) heal that the skill says we should get. And even if the math is just getting messed up, the wording is still wrong. I personally don't have a use for bloodthirsty strike - it barely heals, does less damage than other attacks, and costs a lot of rage. However, I would still like the wording in the attack description to match the reality. Really, I think that should be the case for any skill for any class. ^_^

Well, the skill description determines how it functions, but there are so many variables that come into play to determine combat rolls. Trouble is, with all those variables, it's quite clear that the moment in the combat roll in which it determines your heal value is applied is causing the discrepancies. Bloodthirsty shot is not the only thing to be affected by this (in fact, ALL skills are, including raw damage skills, mage heals, regeneration astrals, etc.). It's not that bloodthirsty shot is purposely being diminished - it's not some conspiracy against archers, guys, but yes it IS most visibly apparent with bloodthirsty shot and regeneration astrals since their heal values are flat %-based which makes them easiest to compare (big red numbers over enemy * x% is plain to see and calculate with the naked eye) but the damage roll math affects everything.

Bloodthirsty shot is a good skill (if you have much higher attack value than target's defense value it's one of the best in-game) - it's an ability with a two-fold effect rapped into one: deals damage + heals user. When a mage heals, the mage isn't doing damage, is he? Lastly, bloodthirsty shot heal values CAN BE incredible (in fact, they come close to if not surpass mage heals for a good while) and can certainly alter the outcome of a fight in the archer's favor. I'm not saying it's a must-have for every spec of archer, I'm not telling you how to pick/choose your abilities, go with your own preferance, but saying the ability is useless would be bad information, particularly if you ever fight Lulula (shout out! mad props, lulu!) - whom will use bloodthirsty shot on me (I'm a mage with ~13k PDEF) and get heal values around 10k from it.

[R27537271]

Seriously, archer already heals better than mage. 80% damage > 75% restore, not counting crits! and archer crits hell a lot better than anyone.

Archer has 14 15k PATK. Its true. But can we deal 14k to a knight or mage to gain HP like Restore with 15% dam reduction

best joke ever lol

[SinnedWill]

Archer has 14 15k PATK. Its true. But can we deal 14k to a knight or mage to gain HP like Restore with 15% dam reduction

best joke ever lol

As your Attack value gap increases over your opponent's defenses, you can start to see damage values that greatly surpass your attack value. And again, you're neglecting to factor in the damage aspect. Bloodthirsty shot does damage + heals so perhaps you should consider ADDING UP the damage dealt + heal value before you consider comparing half of what one ability does to another ability.

[R26031681]

I've found several of the archer skills don't work as advertised. ** is level 1 for me so it's supposed to heal 50%. I'd say I get a 50% heal about 20% of the time. Mostly it's much lower, so much so, that i've almost completely quit using it as i can't rely on it and don't want to waste the rage. Got 11.7% one time, that one really ticked me off.

DF: Only works against the computer. Completely worthless against a live component. I've been reading the prevailing theory is Mages > Knights > Archers > Mages. this is horsecrap. How is an archer built to beat a mage anymore than a Knight is? We don't get a boost to MDEF and you could argue DF is our counter and I could see that if it worked against live opponents. Since it doesn't it has limited use. Knights get just as much of a PATK bonus as we do. The only thing we have is crit and that only works 100% on Multishot. Otherwise it's been nerfed enough that in order for it to work for you you have to give up something else. So it's a trade off of skills/abilities. Again not really a bonus but a choice. Archers excel at WB but that's because crit was nerfed there so that it hits much more often. but then again everyone could take advantage of that. That isn't specific to archers.

SS: Another good skill when it works. Mine is level 2 and i've noticed it doesnt' always work. Love that feeling as well. I'd say it works as advertised about 85% of the time. i have no idea why it doesn't when it doesn't. I've had it not get rid of shields, heals, reverse damage, etc.

Poison Shot: I've found that poison shot is supposed to deliver a hit that is X% of your PATK and then deal poison damage that is equal to that %. So if I hit for 1500 damage it should do poison damage for an equal amount for 2-3 turns (depending on level). Yep, you guessed it, that doesn't work right all the time either. Not only does it do less damage (often), but also it sometimes does random damage each turn. I've posted a ticket regarding this but was directed back to the forums as it stated "this is an in game issue and is something that other forum members might help you with". I assume help me understand why it doesn't work like it says it does.

[PonyPit]

I don't use poison shot or bloodthirsty strike for the very reasons stated. Deep Freeze I don't even leave on my bar when I'm not using it because of the fore mentioned issue with live players(taking it off prevents AI from being stupid).

It also would be nice if these things could be discussed more so they get fixed without trolls hoping on to complain about things that have nothing to do with the thread starter.

[jmadrox]

where's our heal 100% of the time for knights, when i block multi hits i dont get 2 heals, scept for half the time.

[R26031681]

Well, the skill description determines how it functions, but there are so many variables that come into play to determine combat rolls. Trouble is, with all those variables, it's quite clear that the moment in the combat roll in which it determines your heal value is applied is causing the discrepancies. Bloodthirsty shot is not the only thing to be affected by this (in fact, ALL skills are, including raw damage skills, mage heals, regeneration astrals, etc.). It's not that bloodthirsty shot is purposely being diminished - it's not some conspiracy against archers, guys, but yes it IS most visibly apparent with bloodthirsty shot and regeneration astrals since their heal values are flat %-based which makes them easiest to compare (big red numbers over enemy * x% is plain to see and calculate with the naked eye) but the damage roll math affects everything.

Bloodthirsty shot is a good skill (if you have much higher attack value than target's defense value it's one of the best in-game) - it's an ability with a two-fold effect rapped into one: deals damage + heals user. When a mage heals, the mage isn't doing damage, is he? Lastly, bloodthirsty shot heal values CAN BE incredible (in fact, they come close to if not surpass mage heals for a good while) and can certainly alter the outcome of a fight in the archer's favor. I'm not saying it's a must-have for every spec of archer, I'm not telling you how to pick/choose your abilities, go with your own preferance, but saying the ability is useless would be bad information, particularly if you ever fight Lulula (shout out! mad props, lulu!) - whom will use bloodthirsty shot on me (I'm a mage with ~13k PDEF) and get heal values around 10k from it.

See here's the part I don't understand....Damage calculations are subject to variables but we can see what damage we do. The description clearly states 50% of damage done. So once damage is done the 50% is easy to calculate. If it based on a different calculation of damage, which is preposterous btw, then it should be consistent either way. I've studied it for a period of time before i sent in the ticket. I got healing values ranging from 11.7% up to 50% with a wide variety of ranges in between there. That to me seems random, not based on a point in the damage calculation that is before final damage is figured. Most of the ones I monitored (50 bloodthirsty shots) fell between 32% and 38% but there were many outside that.
I'd ask that if it's random up to 50% then say it's random, why try to fool the player? Knights Agoran shield is supposed to protect from damage equal to 20% of their Health. Is that up to 20% or actually 20%? Mages heal 4% of health value, is that up to 4% or 4%. I'll say in MP dungeons their healing seems pretty consistent to me. The heals cast on me heal me the same amount every turn and every battle.
I'm complaining a little as I'm irritated I wasted any points in ** (at least only 1) but what irritates me more is why the need to confuse it. Just say what it is and let me make the decision if I want to spend on it or not? Why be purposefully misleading? I've played a knight up to level 45. I don't remember running into times where it appeared they're skills didn't work as advertised. If you use the reverse damage and you have it at the level it deals 1000 damage back, it deals 1000 damage back, every time. Why are the archer skills so misleading, or written so incorrectly?
I have no problem with how the skills work now that I know, I can choose not to use them, it's just irritating that you plan one way and have to scrap that plan when you find out your decisions were based on faulty information.

[RealZabbad]

Maybe archers should heal better IF they don't dominate at WB.

It's hard to believe that archers want everything.
Top in WB, Crits, Top in Divine Altar, and now comparable healing with mages.

I haven't heard anything worse on this forum, the skill clearly states what we should get which we don't, if you now have 70% (80% with qte) and get healed for 5k with a 15k hit something is seriously wrong.

[Nimras186]

I've found several of the archer skills don't work as advertised. ** is level 1 for me so it's supposed to heal 50%. I'd say I get a 50% heal about 20% of the time. Mostly it's much lower, so much so, that i've almost completely quit using it as i can't rely on it and don't want to waste the rage. Got 11.7% one time, that one really ticked me off.

DF: Only works against the computer. Completely worthless against a live component. I've been reading the prevailing theory is Mages > Knights > Archers > Mages. this is horsecrap. How is an archer built to beat a mage anymore than a Knight is? We don't get a boost to MDEF and you could argue DF is our counter and I could see that if it worked against live opponents. Since it doesn't it has limited use. Knights get just as much of a PATK bonus as we do. The only thing we have is crit and that only works 100% on Multishot. Otherwise it's been nerfed enough that in order for it to work for you you have to give up something else. So it's a trade off of skills/abilities. Again not really a bonus but a choice. Archers excel at WB but that's because crit was nerfed there so that it hits much more often. but then again everyone could take advantage of that. That isn't specific to archers.

SS: Another good skill when it works. Mine is level 2 and i've noticed it doesnt' always work. Love that feeling as well. I'd say it works as advertised about 85% of the time. i have no idea why it doesn't when it doesn't. I've had it not get rid of shields, heals, reverse damage, etc.

Poison Shot: I've found that poison shot is supposed to deliver a hit that is X% of your PATK and then deal poison damage that is equal to that %. So if I hit for 1500 damage it should do poison damage for an equal amount for 2-3 turns (depending on level). Yep, you guessed it, that doesn't work right all the time either. Not only does it do less damage (often), but also it sometimes does random damage each turn. I've posted a ticket regarding this but was directed back to the forums as it stated "this is an in game issue and is something that other forum members might help you with". I assume help me understand why it doesn't work like it says it does.

Saying SS and DF do not work on a live player is WRONG.

I am a MAGE i have seen SS remove sunt from me and my units making me lose. I have seen DF make me lose often as well due to longer CAST times as well so saying they do not work is something i can't agree with they work FINE on me lol.

[SuperMimi]

Well, the skill description determines how it functions, but there are so many variables that come into play to determine combat rolls. Trouble is, with all those variables, it's quite clear that the moment in the combat roll in which it determines your heal value is applied is causing the discrepancies. Bloodthirsty shot is not the only thing to be affected by this (in fact, ALL skills are, including raw damage skills, mage heals, regeneration astrals, etc.). It's not that bloodthirsty shot is purposely being diminished - it's not some conspiracy against archers, guys, but yes it IS most visibly apparent with bloodthirsty shot and regeneration astrals since their heal values are flat %-based which makes them easiest to compare (big red numbers over enemy * x% is plain to see and calculate with the naked eye) but the damage roll math affects everything.

Bloodthirsty shot is a good skill (if you have much higher attack value than target's defense value it's one of the best in-game) - it's an ability with a two-fold effect rapped into one: deals damage + heals user. When a mage heals, the mage isn't doing damage, is he? Lastly, bloodthirsty shot heal values CAN BE incredible (in fact, they come close to if not surpass mage heals for a good while) and can certainly alter the outcome of a fight in the archer's favor. I'm not saying it's a must-have for every spec of archer, I'm not telling you how to pick/choose your abilities, go with your own preferance, but saying the ability is useless would be bad information, particularly if you ever fight Lulula (shout out! mad props, lulu!) - whom will use bloodthirsty shot on me (I'm a mage with ~13k PDEF) and get heal values around 10k from it.

dude you missed one thing.. Bloodthirsty = Damage + heal.. Mage Heal = -% damage recieve + Heal.. And bloodthirsty heal depends on your damage dealt on enemy.. It also depends on pdef of your opponent.. Still , mage heal is good over bloodthirsty.. Best ways is to use your bloodthirsty on troop to gain more heal.. The problem is , if the formation of your opponent is on front , and troop is on the back row, its bloodthirst is useless..