Originally posted by R2_D2droid
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do you honestly know what you are talking about? Crit=block they take out eachother. Then they have same hp, scratch that aswell, they have same pdef randoms/astrals, knight have 20% more ( i am being nice letting extra def from armor take out what knight loses from guildskill/astral level) left is: patk, archer have at best 10% more patk... In reality it is around 1 astral/guildskill lvl+ 1 extra enlighten) that is ~500 extra atk vs 20% pdef, NOW do finally you finally understand??? If not i am done arguing to some1 that doesn't know basic of basical basics( that knight easly beat archer) -
guys i just found out that knight that mocking us noob doesnt know how to build a knight is far more weak than us that complain about knight weekness.
i face them in bg and arena. dont said other ppl noob if ur char is so weak!
im confuse who the noob, he have higher br compare to my knight char and i can kill it easly.
ok let get back to the problem.
w r not saying knight is weak, knight is strong but in the process to build a knight is too hard w need to spend extra balens.
u guys realize all the strong knight in all server is a casher.
in the process of building a char, archer have big advantage in every section. (w dont have to compare knight vs mage ok, knight lose)
beside balens, gold rules this game, who the one that have advantage in gold? Yes... archer in wb.
why i said gold rules, astral (the most important sector) guild skill guild mount pot, all of thats need gold. if archer have all of this faster than knight, how do w kill it.
not mention archer always can get troop lvl faster because daru from wb.
wat we argue about is not the end result of knight killing archer the same br, but the process of building it, the archer that build the same time wit us already have higher br. archer got all the advantage, mage naturally kill knight (im not gonna argue bout this)
knight got super less advantage.
oh yeah like in demon temple mpd, ppl more prefer 2 archer 1 mage and 1 knight. in moon 1 mage and 3 archer can finish it. we knight is hard to find a team to do mpd because most of the boss in mpd is matk, we knight lack of mdef.
thats all guys, ty
stop nerf knight, we need more gold.Comment
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Well i met an incident in BG , knight and archer similar br
Archer 20k Patk 12k Pdef 40k++ hp 2.9k crits, lvl 68 Templar placed in front
Knight 14.9k Patk 13k+ almost 14k Pdef 56k+ HP 2.1k blocks, lvl 66 Templar placed in front
Guess who wins? Both have similar BR, but archer can stun knight 1 round.
Theoretically knight should win, but archer won, the knight is real noob I know,
just to let you know. There are archers that are not push over.62996
Five Sylphs for the Heros in wartune,
Two for the Whales in their deep blue ocean,
Three for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Big Whales on their dark throne
In the Land of Wartune where the heroes lie.
One sylph to crush them all, One sylph to kill mobs,
One sylph to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Wartune where the Moby duck lie."Comment
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@XuLee... No mage is the best overall..
Not only knights needs balen to be in the top, I promise to be within the absolute top u need balens no matter class, in fact knight is a rather "balen cheap" class, cuz of the natural advantages. If all you care about is gold and daru, reroll an archer...Comment
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@krackenker
lol Xulee already make an archer, u should read again krackenker.
dont be smart *** krackenker, XuLee only share his exp build 2 diff char at the same time.
i agree wit xulee.
one more thing "knight balens cheap class" u said, lol i bet no one agree wit u. really krackenker this is the 1st time i heard someone said that.
give opinion like XuLee, that more help than wat u post krackenker.
w all know to be on top w need to spend balens (*** w all know that), XuLee mean wit same amount balens spend archer have advantage.
i wonder can u read wat XuLee type.
and 1 more XuLee didnt said mage the best overall, i think XuLee mean Mage kill Knight so he wont argue about Mage at all.
Please krackenker dont make this thread become more miss understanding.
i agree wit xulee "the process of building a knight have less advantage"
i think krackenker is an archer, that why he try to ruin this thread.
i pm ask many archer in my server, they all admit they have the advantage, they said if ppl now how to spend that gold and daru archer can dominate. they lost only to hard casher knight.
Gold = pot, astral better, get guild skill faster, get guild mount faster, extra exp at ToA guild chamber ( can get lvling or lvling talent faster )
w knight need more much time to get that.
yea yea yea i know knight owns archer. but if u can get that all faster do we knight still own archers?
thanks that my opinionLast edited by jessy83; 05-03-2013, 08:11 PM.Comment
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Not very clear on what or how you're arguing here.Originally posted by krackenker View Post
First of all, where do you get the 10% more patk? If the archer only has 10% more patk, then the knight should only have about 8% (guesstimate) more pdef (since Archer patk - Knight patk > Knight pdef - Archer pdef).
Archer crit > Knight block. But br wise, crit doesn't provide a lot of br for the archer over the knight (unless the knight decides to forgo block completely).
If the knight and archer has the same hp, then the knight would have increased pdef. Actually a little bit more than the archer has more patk since Archer crit > Knight Block. So (Archer Patk - Knight Patk < Knight Pdef - Archer Pdef) if (Archer HP >= Knight HP). This is probably the only case where that is so.
500 patk vs 20% pdef: It seems like you're making everything else between the archer and knight equal with the exception of +500 patk for the archer and +20% pdef for the knight.
Since they have the same br, then the +20% pdef = 500 patk. Which means the knight has +500 pdef (the archer has 2.5k pdef, knight has 3k pdef). Numbers seem kinda low, but hey, it's your example.
Even then, I'm not seeing how that changes things. The archer with the 500 more patk and greater crit should kill the troops faster than the knight with 500 more pdef and greater block, giving the archer extra hits on the knight. The extra hits would mean the archer has the advantage once the knight finishes the troops.Comment
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After reading a good portion of this thread and your examples (I play knight) your thought about knights is the most ridiculous thing i've ever read.Originally posted by R2_D2droid View Post
First off, you keep saying archers get the extra hits but if a knight IS BUILT RIGHT that makes no difference at all. The only types of archers that give me any issue at all are "tank archers", archers with abnormally high defense. However those builds are few and far between. If you look at similar BR archers in 90% of the cases, you will see the archer has ~500-1000 more atk, while the knight will easily have 1000+ more pdef.
The way dmg is calculated (dmg - def) / 2. Now i already know your going to bring up crit, which is fine. but any REAL knight is going to have enhanced will. I can tell you now, because i beat archers with higher BR than me on a pretty consistent basis (maybe because i know how to build a knight?), that archers in my BR range hit me for 2-3k dmg, while my ulti. slasher 150% dmg + 300 QTE: 25% dmg and 20% EWD will hit most archers for around 5-8k dmg. The reason for this is way to many archers focus soley on DPS, in doing this there defense is so low compared to mine that i literally plow right through them. Also as far as troops are concerned unlike most other knight i have no issues killing Templars (currently in 50-59 BG) ult. slash - slasher - whirlwind and they are dead. Another thing that everyone is leaving out is Troop count, which again from what iv seen mine is pretty high for a knight of my level, or so iv seen.
Maybe you have no issue killing knights, wouldnt surprise me at all, but im sure the knights that you are fighting are not built properly. Similar to the fact that i can beat most archers because instead of balancing themselves out they focus only on dmg. Your comments here are entirely way to general. You say knights and assume they are all built the same, but the truth is knights of the same BR will always have more pdef which will cancel out your extra attack. Knights skills hit for WAY more damage than archers and you through an enhanced will destroyer in the mix your pretty much done, unless of course your built your archer right and spent some time focusing on defense.
and ill also add, the second a fight gets to +50% and i throw my maxed out delphic it can normally take out more than half of an archers life, so even if i only took out half of yours, you would be dead at that point anyway.
On a side note, id love to see your stats a few people have already asked, im not sure why you arent able to show your build?Last edited by bleedingxorange; 05-03-2013, 08:53 PM.Comment
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hihi u have no issues killing same br archerOriginally posted by bleedingxorange View Post
what about archer 20k patk 12k-13k pdef and 40k hp while knight 15k+ patk 15k pdef and 60khp(buffed).
Knight ewd lvl 7, while archer not sure but from cross server bg, guess who won?62996
Five Sylphs for the Heros in wartune,
Two for the Whales in their deep blue ocean,
Three for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Big Whales on their dark throne
In the Land of Wartune where the heroes lie.
One sylph to crush them all, One sylph to kill mobs,
One sylph to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Wartune where the Moby duck lie."Comment
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seeing as how the archer has 5k more patk, i would guess the archer won. did you read my post or no? I guess you did not. But i can tell you just by looking at those stats, those 2 people DO NOT have the same BR. If you would like to post screens i would love to see that they have the same BR.Originally posted by R21577189 View Post
I like this line "while archer not sure but from cross server bg" your admitting you have no idea what thier BR even was, so why are you even posting? you can go troll somewhere else.
EDIT:
"12k-13k pdef" "15k+ patk" lol.. you have no idea what either stats where? again how are you saying they had the same BR? Where you even the knight or the archer in this scenario? or did you just see the archer killed the knight in chat? your comment means absolutely nothing if you were not 1 of the people in the fight because you have no idea if they were both even at full health.
I currently am lvl 58 with 45k BR, I fought an archer in BG yesterday with 50k BR and got them down to 1 hit before they killed me, they also have lvl 59 troops to my lvl 55 troops. Yet i still almost won with 5k br deficit. What my last post said, is archer of the same BR as me generally have about 1k more patk than me, i dont see how comparing an archer with 5k more patk than a knight has anything to do with what i wrote. The bottom line is that if a knight is built right, thier extra pdef will make up for extra 1-1.5k patk of an archer. Obviously if there is THAT big of a gap its not going to be close to even.Last edited by bleedingxorange; 05-03-2013, 11:09 PM.Comment
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tired to argue about this issue, the process of building the char is the issue.
please guys dont mock on other ppl build, that wont solve the issue.
ok..... u r super strong orange mighty build, come to 60's or 70's bg the archer will bully u.
why a lot of ppl always said that other ppl build suk.Comment
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people knock on other's builds, because people complain about how much a specific class is terrible. Hence this entire thread, is complaining about how bad knights are.Originally posted by jessy83 View Post
It is not true. As a knight i have had 0 problem in pve, i cleared lvl 100 cata pre-lvl 50 with less than 8k mdef. I find parties for mpd's again easily, because people on my server are fully aware that i can tank. I finish in the top 10 in WB on vouchers only almost every WB i go into. I'd say 8 out 10 time I go into BG i end up with MVP. So, how can everyone say knight is the worst class?? I sure don't see it. If you think this class is not capable of competing with both archers OR mages, then the only explanation is you built your character wrong.. plain and simple. I'm so sick of the crying from 80% of people who play knight and make excuses for why the class sucks, when it doesnt suck.. IF ITS BUILT RIGHT.
and as far as the 60 and 70 BG's hope to see you there. Unlike most, i am staying back at lvl 59 for a while and getting my BR a healthy amount over 50k before i even consider hitting lvl 60. And as far getting bully'd any class could bully any other class, IF THEY ARE BUILT RIGHT. I can give you an example look at 50-59 BG anyone with over 50k br is going to dominate in BG your class doesnt matter. You wanna say a knight with 50k BR cant take an archer or mage under 40k? or an Archer with 50k cant take a knight or mage with under 40k? or a Mage with 50k BR cant take an archer or knight under 40k?
it is 100% dependent how you built your character. If you build well, regardless of class, you will have no problems doing anything in this game. To come on a forum and cry about how unfair it is that archers are so OP or how mages are better in pve... get over it, learn how to make yourself useful.Comment
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Both Mages and Knights, of same BR, can kill Archers... Archers are not really a good pvp class.Originally posted by jessy83 View Post
The gold and daru obtained in World Boss that you mentioned before, makes very little difference. Since if you know how to play the game, you'll be making about 100-200k gold less than they do.
I'd have to say they deal approx the same or less damage in PVP.
Knights easily counter with their shields, block + HP gain and high hp/pdef.
Mages counter by quickly eliminating troops and healing themselves and troops. (Healing troops is the key for me, keep them alive, and archer is targetting randomly and relying on luck) While constantly landing hits on the archer.
In my opinion, Archers advantage is high HP + high attack + high crit rate/damage. Kill quickly or be killedLast edited by ElusionM; 05-04-2013, 01:37 AM.Comment
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The thing is we are talking about equal br. Stat-wise everything counts into br. Attack, Defense, Crit, Block, and HP all count into BR (matk also counts but for now, let's disregard that since it doesn't do anything and matk artificially inflates br). If the archer and knight have the exact amount for every stat, they'll have the same br. If the knight has 500 more defense than the archer, but the archer has 500 more attack, then they have the same br.Originally posted by bleedingxorange View Post
If the archer has 500-1000 more attack while the knight has 1000+ more defense, then the archer has 0-500+ more stats in the other areas. You need to include those stats as well.
Between a knight and an archer, the knight usually has more pdef, block, and hp; and the archer has more patk and crit.
Archer will have more crit than the knight has block. So the archer gains some br over the knight in that area. However, usually crit and block are low compared to pdef and patk. So relatively the gains are low.
Knights have more hp than the archer. In my experience, this usually covers the crit-block difference with some left over. So after counting crit, block, and hp, the knight is ahead in br.
Finally, pdef and patk. Archers have more patk than knights. Knights have more pdef than archers. The question is how does the knight's increased pdef (knight pdef - archer pdef) compare against the archer's increased patk (archer patk - knight patk)?
If the difference between pdef and patk are the same, then there's no net gain in terms of br. This results in the knight being ahead in br (from crit, block, and hp). Since we're comparing equal br, this can't be the case.
If the knight has more pdef than the archer has more patk (or in other words, the knight has enough defense to cover the archer's extra damage), then it's a net gain in br for the knight. This means the knight is even further ahead in br. So this can't be the case.
If the archer has more patk than the knight has more pdef, then this is a net gain for the archer, which should offset the knight's br gain from crit, block, and hp if they are equal br.
Of course, there are exceptions, but they come as a trade-off. Like a knight that doesn't bother with as much hp. In that case, the hp doesn't cover the crit-block difference but the knight makes up for it with more pdef. The knight does take less damage from the archer, but the archer's damage is more effective relative to the knight's reduced hp.
Another case is where a knight forgoes block, increasing the crit-block difference. This means the knight can have a larger amount of hp. However, the archer's attacks doesn't get blocked often and the archer does increased damage (as an average).
I already talked about determination vs ewd and multi-shot vs ultimate slasher. I guess I can combine the calculations here: Ultimate Slasher + EWD vs Multi-shot + Determination.Originally posted by bleedingxorange View Post
Both Ultimate Slasher and Multi-shot have QTE for 25% more damage. So we can calculate pre-QTE to see which does more damage (since QTE is an even multiplier, the higher damage skill pre-QTE will still be the higher damage skill post-QTE).
Ultimate Slasher is 150%+300 and EWD is 20%. That results in 180%+360, pre-QTE.
Multi-shot is 2 crit attacks at 55%+150 and Determination is 20% (archer equivalent of knight's ewd). The two attacks results in 110%+150, pre-crit. With 20% determination and a 100% chance to crit, that makes it 187%+510, pre-QTE.
So Multi-shot deals more damage than Ultimate Slasher.
For Slasher and Whirlwind comparisons, we'd need the archer's crit rate.
If you're able to clear troops with ultimate slasher + slasher + whirlwind, then an archer should be able to clear yours faster in either 2 turns (multi-shot and lunatic) or 3 turns (multi-shot, lunatic, and arrow strike) and maybe hitting you once (half a multi-shot). Granted it is possible you don't get hurt on the 3 turn one (both multi-shots hit the troop). In that case, the dead troop is absorbing the extra archer damage. In this scenario, in terms of damage per round, it takes you (let's say) 2.9 rounds of damage to kill the troops, but the archer only needs 2.4. However, since you can't fraction of a round, they could both end up taking 3 rounds. Once you and the archer gets stronger troops, it won't be a coin toss any more.
Okay, so you're saying you can beat more archers because they only focus on damage, but tanky archers give you some fight. At the same time, you say those (damage focused) archers are only hitting you for 2-3k. How much damage does the tanky archers hit you for then? 1-2k?!Originally posted by bleedingxorange View Post
Also, you're saying you beat archers because you built right and since I'm beating knights all the time, the knights I'm facing aren't built right. How do you know it's not the other way around and you're facing archers that aren't built right (especially since the archers that are completely focused on damage only hits you for 2-3k)?
I know a knight can be built several ways. Defensive using a mixture of pdef, hp, and block in different ratios. Offensive with patk and either crit/crit damage or ewd.
The results are the same.
Defensive lacks the damage to clear troops as fast as an archer. The archer gets some free hits on the knight. The more defensive the knight is, the longer it takes for the knight to clear the troops and the more hits the archer gets in. After troops are cleared, they attack each other. They deal little and relatively similar damage to each other (the knight dealing a little bit more). However because he took the early damage, the knight loses.
Offensive does a lot of damage but lacks the toughness of the defensive knight. However, the knight still does less damage than the archer. The archer will get an extra hit in before the knight clears the troops. While the archer gets fewer extra hits compare to the defensive knight, the extra hit hurt a lot more. The knight and archer exchange attacks which are high in damage but relatively similar damage (again, the knight dealing a little bit more relatively). However because he took the early damage, the knight loses.
They play very much the same just differ on the number of rounds it takes.
We can compare delphics to see what does more damage, but that depends on the archer's crit rate and I think the main advantage of the knight's delphic vs the archer's delphic is the knight's rage gain.Originally posted by bleedingxorange View Post
If we start talking about rage gain, we need to include clothes, equipment set, and rage usage throughout the fight. All of those are extremely variable from knight to knight and archer to archer. And saying equal br doesn't limit it well. Especially since different gear sets or number of clothes might change who should win.
Setting rage use and gain aside for now for simplicity (let's say the archer uses a rage rune to be able to delphic), then it's a simple matter of damage from the skills. In which case, the crit rate is important to know the average damage of the archer's delphic sniper for comparison.
My stats by themselves are kinda irrelevant. You need an equivalent knight's stats as a comparison. But this seems like a major hangup for some people for some odd reason. So here:Originally posted by bleedingxorange View Post
Level 64, maxed templars.
(756 Matk and 7,873 Mdef for completion)HTML Code:14,243 Patk 8,018 Pdef 2,827 Crit 534 Block 37,422 HP 1,218 Troop Count BR: 42,990 Effective BR from patk, pdef, crit, block, and hp: 33,106.4
If you'd like, build an equivalent br knight. Take 33,106.4 br to spread across the stats of what you'd think a properly built knight should have. You can also take your stats and multiply to shrink or increase to around 33,106.4 br (to maintain the ratio of your stats). Set your troop count to 1,218 to keep it even. HP is 0.2 br per point and the rest is 1 br per point. In br terms, 1 patk = 1 pdef = 1 crit = 1 block = 5 HP = 1 troop count.
Then you can see which category you fall under.
Does your increased pdef cover my increased patk?
How does your crit and block measure against my crit and block?
How much hp do you have?
Does your hp cover the br difference from the crit-block?
Not sure what this really shows since we don't have an actual knight I can fight and I can't pull the stats of knights when I fought them.
Phew. Going to sleep now. Words blurring together.Comment
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Sad theres no way we could duel, im only about 2k BR ahead of you, but 6 lvls back. I could tell you now though, i would bet that even though you have 2k more patk than me, i would hit you harder.
There is a archer on my server, lvl 59 13.5k patk 9.7k pdef lvl 59 templers 45043 BR. I am lvl 58 12.5k patk 10.3k pdef lvl 55 templers 45213 BR. Just to run a test i fought him in solo arena (NOT TO SHOW I COULD WIN) but just to see what the difference was in dmg taken vs dmg received he hit me 2 times with DF for 4.5k dmg, arrow strike hit me 2.5k dmg. my Ult. Slasher hit him for 4.5k dmg slasher for 3.5k. After +50% came up, i hit him with ult for over 7k dmg, he hit me for 5k (crit) dmg. As you can see our stats are not far off at all, but i was easily able to beat him even though his troops were 4 lvls higher than mine and my patk was 1k less. the difference in our pdef is 600. This is where having the right build is key and i guess at this point we will have to agree to disagree, my whole point to you about builds, is im sure you have fought poorly built knights the same way i have fought poorly built archers. Archers who dont focus on defense almost at all will not take a tanky knight bottom line. but if a knight cant put up dmg you will more than likely kill them before they kill you as an archer.
I wont continue this further. I felt the need to put in my 2 cents because not every build is the same, you will be hard pressed to find a knight and archer with identical stats to really test the way you want.
If you want my stats to compare:
12559 patk
10283 pdef
1610 matk
8762 mdef
10 crit
2041 block
44282 hp
1012 troop count
45213Last edited by bleedingxorange; 05-04-2013, 02:37 AM.Comment
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haha 50k br at lvl 60 bg, you must be joking.Originally posted by bleedingxorange View Post
Most of the average ppl are 55k br and the higher guys are 60-66k br from S1 with lvl 60 set legend.62996
Five Sylphs for the Heros in wartune,
Two for the Whales in their deep blue ocean,
Three for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Big Whales on their dark throne
In the Land of Wartune where the heroes lie.
One sylph to crush them all, One sylph to kill mobs,
One sylph to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Wartune where the Moby duck lie."Comment
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