A Balance Discussion

[R25376153]

AYAZ 160K, STARQUEEN 140K, other 2 don't know :P

ya it is hard to reach 19, so they said it is their 2nd time

good job anyway

SaintRegis is like 120k+ br and AngelMayDie is 110k+ i guess

[senadbasic]

no mage will be ewd late game they will switch critical(u simply cant keep up with dmg for both pvp and pvp spire,necro...also there is matter of crit heals since later 50k heal with talents isn't much)

so when mage switch to crit he lose a lot defense and hp(astral also) switching gems to crit and refines so by far mages are weakest class to survive here

any normal archer will ap or Delphic mage since u cant heal all there are 1 restor 1 bl and long cd them(and u wont probably heal all dmg from Delphic if u survive it)

we don't have luxury to gain 20% hp from passive on every single thing that increase hp on lvl 20 fate u gain 4k hp extra while mage none,and now there is second fate which can net u another 4k hp.....
while extra hp helps u survive many more hits from both players and high lvl bosses from spire,necro,mages don't

also I had GA astral lvl 8 equipped for 4 months its not valid astral archers still crit a lot,and knights/mages can just crit heal with iris,it is fail astral

[Tranc3motion]

What's the point of talking about balance tweaks? You already know what the game will be like 6 months to 1 yr from now. This game won't deviate from the CN version.

[HELLRAlSER]

no mage will be ewd late game they will switch critical(u simply cant keep up with dmg for both pvp and pvp spire,necro...also there is matter of crit heals since later 50k heal with talents isn't much)

so when mage switch to crit he lose a lot defense and hp(astral also) switching gems to crit and refines so by far mages are weakest class to survive here

any normal archer will ap or Delphic mage since u cant heal all there are 1 restor 1 bl and long cd them(and u wont probably heal all dmg from Delphic if u survive it)

we don't have luxury to gain 20% hp from passive on every single thing that increase hp on lvl 20 fate u gain 4k hp extra while mage none,and now there is second fate which can net u another 4k hp.....
while extra hp helps u survive many more hits from both players and high lvl bosses from spire,necro,mages don't

also I had GA astral lvl 8 equipped for 4 months its not valid astral archers still crit a lot,and knights/mages can just crit heal with iris,it is fail astral

Rewards in a party doesn't flactuate according to contribution. You all get same rewards. Not only you can resto all damage, you get a 10% damage reduction for 2 turns afterwards.

In all honestly only thing that can keep archers around is the belief that GA doesnt utterly destroy em. That doesnt apply to good players tho.

What's the point of talking about balance tweaks? You already know what the game will be like 6 months to 1 yr from now. This game won't deviate from the CN version.

It was a futile attempt, but putting it this way. Guess only thing left to say is, if you have an archer i pity you (and me).

[icesz]

there is only balance if u use balens!!!!

[HELLRAlSER]

there is only balance if u use balens!!!!

What if he had used same balens as you? still balanced?

[icesz]

then u use more

[HELLRAlSER]

then u use more

what if he use more too? Thats not how balance works...

[B4nsh33]

Top Mages I see are getting pwnd by archers..... knights are pwning everybody. BTS is a great skill in my opinion. Too bad you don't think so. Knights heal after block? Yeah, it's a little dumb, they block 1k damage and heal for 5k. But, it doesn't always proc, so I laugh when i destroy them.

[icesz]

then go extreem till u are able to beat Zebq 1 on 1

[bakuryuuha]

An Archer's Damage output over time is better than any other class. Knights have the worst AoE to get rid of troops, if they take that route. If they're content to let troops heal them, their Delphic are pointless because Troops are often in the front rank. Archers get the bonus of a stackable to 10% damage buff as well, which is an after calculation boost, so it's like making AP go from 200% (w/ QTE) to 220%. It's making Delphic Sniper go from 345% to about 380%.

As a Mage I've been the target of Lunatic - AP + Rage Rune - AP - Lunatic - AP - Bloodthirst + Awaken + Heal Rune. At this point I've used my Sunto and my Resto + Heal Rune after the 2nd Lunatic because I could finally target myself. I'm still down around 1/2 HP. I don't carry BL because I need RoF and Thunderer, and my Rage Regen bites w/o LB. I won't have Resto available again for 3 Turns (29s CD) when the Awaken happens, and between Bloodthirst and the Rune, he healed himself > 50K HP and is near full. I'm done at this point.

If an Archer has the Starting Rage to pull that off, and the L6 Rage Rune, he's a Mages worst nightmare. Because it almost doesn't matter what pet he uses... Apollo - ok, Self-Heal to top-off, Delphic, Transform Out and Rage + Delphic Sniper. Dead Mage. Iris? Rain Dance, Delpihc, Transform out + Delphic Sniper. Gaia? the Mage is likely too low to withstand a Jupiter's Wrath & Thunder Wave. Hades? Devour Soul tops off the Archer HP and the Mage doesn't survive the Endless Night.

The point being, no other class has the potential to do 159% + 220%* + 220%* + 175%* + 220%* + 132%* + 110%* = 1,236% Damage, all which is hitting the enemy Player. (* Includes continual 10% Damage Bonus after 1st 5 Crits) On the chance the Troops are still there after the 2nd Lunatic (a likely possibility with Sunto down), the Bloodthirsty will hit the Troops, getting more HP to the Archer, while the Awaken clears the troops, making the Player take 1,104% Damage over that period, with the Archer Healing somewhere in the vicinity of a 96% Equiv (80% of 120% vs. an enemy w/ Troop Defense). Or replace the Blood w/ a Straight AP and get another 220% on the player for a total of 1,324% Damage w/ no Healing.

As a Mage, the best I can do targeting the player is 167% (Meteor) + 165% (RoF) + 100% (Chaos/Amnesia/Mire) + 167% (Meteor) + 110% (LB) + Thunderer (320%) +110% (LB) + 100% (Awaken) = 1,239%, which factors in NO Healing. If I choose to Heal and get a Thunderer off I need to replace out a 110% (LB) and the 100% (Chaos/Amnesia/Mire) with a Rage at some point, bringing my Damage total to 1,029% Damage w/ a Resto. A Sunto would drop it down to 919% Damage, assuming it replaced a LB. And now, the final and most important piece, the Innate Crit Boosts Archers receive give them anywhere from a 10% to 25% higher Crit Rate - let's call it a 15% Median of higher frequency of Critical Hits. Being Crit approximately doubles damage at the high end, you're talking about 15% more damage throughout the progression on top of those existing Skill Bases. So factoring out the equivalences of Crit Damage, you're looking at a potential of nearly 300% more damage the Archer can produce Prior to and including the Initial Awakening that the Mage cannot where it comes to targeting the player.

That only happens when you fighting an archer much stronger than you. Normal archers don't really crit as much as you think. Furthermore, if mages and knights equip GA astral, that crit chance is lowered even more. As a mage, you knowing that you're going to fight an archer which has multiple skills to target the back row, why the hell will you position your mage at the back? If I were you, I'd place my mage in the front ranks and the archer can go and waste all that rage to AP my troops which I'll gladly waste 60 rage to do a BL as early as I can so that the archer is left to pray for good luck that his multi and arrow shots aside from bloodthirsty will aim you. You will then be easily able to clear his troops before he can clear yours and even if you eventually lose, the archer won't be any better off being left with little hp. So the actual dmg output from that archer done to you is actually about as much as you do to him if you ignore the dmg absorbed by the troops. Sometimes, dmg output calculation must consider situation rather than just absolute numbers as those numbers can be easily manipulated by a skilled enough player.

[ShiviFee]

Oh my... you got me into serious trouble now, do you know that?
People might think you are a liar if you keep mistaking Spire-Boss-Numbers.
(And there won't be any spire today to screenshot, bc someone is on a date that is not a date)

Besides, the Knight's nerfed heal-cap is 3k at lvl 2.

I can already hear the whining from the future

[bakuryuuha]

Top Mages I see are getting pwnd by archers..... knights are pwning everybody. BTS is a great skill in my opinion. Too bad you don't think so. Knights heal after block? Yeah, it's a little dumb, they block 1k damage and heal for 5k. But, it doesn't always proc, so I laugh when i destroy them.

Hmm...I haven't seen Linketong getting pwned by archers in a 1 on 1 fight. Are you sure you got the definition of top mages correct? or maybe those so called top mages just got the title because there's no casher who decided they'll be a mage so by default, the lucky light casher gets the title? As for block heal, you need to fight top knights to know how often it actually procs. I doubt you'll be able to kill those as easily as you say.

[HELLRAlSER]

Top Mages I see are getting pwnd by archers..... knights are pwning everybody. BTS is a great skill in my opinion. Too bad you don't think so. Knights heal after block? Yeah, it's a little dumb, they block 1k damage and heal for 5k. But, it doesn't always proc, so I laugh when i destroy them.

I dont think many understand how BTS heal works. Its Heal= ((pattx0.8)-pdef)/2.

Block, blocks often enough to matter and can't be reduced by any GA astral.

[HELLRAlSER]

Oh my... you got me into serious trouble now, do you know that?
People might think you are a liar if you keep mistaking Spire-Boss-Numbers.
(And there won't be any spire today to screenshot, bc someone is on a date that is not a date)

Besides, the Knight's nerfed heal-cap is 3k at lvl 2.

I can already hear the whining from the future

who you talking to? Use quotes for easier communication

I think the future heal cap is at 5k, but i may be wrong (funny cause what i suggest is better than this ).