Are you satisfied? Part 2

[selly]

nice post, i hope that we can make the game better

[MemoryLane]

Note: the following is me as a player, not as a mod.

If everything was easy, then everyone would have it and then it wouldn't be special anymore. That is a statement that holds true for every upgrade/chance thing in the game. Everyone thinks they want an easy way to get everything, but what they really mean is they want it only for themselves but not for their competition. Think about it- we want to upgrade our characters to compete with other people. And I know this thread isn't about getting everything easy.

When I started playing this game, I read guides while grinding. I knew before I got into it that a lot of this game's upper content is cash based. I also learned that cashers need gold too. So, while reading all these guides, I picked out what I wanted to spend all my gold on first. I wasn't a casher, didn't get VIP for quite some time. It was just a fun game to play at the time, and I never spend cash on games until I'm positive I will stick around a while.

My choice to start out with was a pet. I saw pictures of a Demon King and I wanted that, thought it would do well to assist with dungeons. From about week 2, I saved my gold. I bought firelord eggs every time I saw them, same with morph crystals. I got my baby demon for free from the green dragon hunt with my 1 green coin a day. I spent every bit of gold I had on morphs and eggs for 60 levels, when I hatched my firelord (I never counted the number of eggs I tried hatching over time). I got my Demon King (19 stars) shortly after from the morph crystals I'd been saving since the beginning (events at the time helped that along, Christmas is coming, maybe they will have similar events again). I was the 4th or 5th person on my server with a Demon King, and the first non-casher to get one. It is possible to get a Demon King for free, even without events that weren't there at the time. My Demon King is a Gen 3 now, and I know of people who have gotten their next gen pets with no cash as well.

While working on my pet, I upgraded my wings. My favorite part of the game was upgrading wings. When I rebirthed as a scion, I still had demigod wings. I now have extreme angel lord wings +2 (which I got before I rebirthed to eidolon), and I never paid cash for ethereal wings, and I don't plan to start (though I am a casual spender every once in a while- I'm addicted to coins, I'll admit), it was all ingame gold. I'm still slowly collecting wings. Rebirth packs help. Number of stars it takes to get an upgrade is a bit daunting, but I'm in no rush.

Sperion just came out. It's hard to judge something that's been out for less than a week. The first week the Fraggle weapons came out, everyone screamed cash shop. How many people do we know that actually spent cash to upgrade the Fraggle? There was maybe a few. Yes, the Sperion takes one cash shop only item to progress, but maybe the soul prints will be offered another way in due time. Let the cashers open their wallets to provide us will all sorts of guides and information before we spend our time and gold working for it, just like we did with the Fraggle weapons.

My point is, as a player, it's entirely possible to achieve goals without spending cash. And while failing an attempt sucks, not gaining stars sucks, and bad luck really sucks, it does in a way create a little bit of a balance. Cashers can't just open the cash shop and instantly have the best of everything (not that any of that stuff really means much if one does not work on soul), they fail at attempts too. Cashers do keep this game free for everyone else, so more power to them for spending. Thank you to the cashers for making it so I don't have to pay a dime unless I want to. So what if people choose to spend tons to get what they want faster than everyone else? In the end, when everyone has the same things, no one is going to remember who spent how much on what and everything will come down to soul anyway.

That said, it would be absolutely lovely to have some sort of way to prevent fails, like a game I played for a day recently that provided a stone of sorts to prevent losing enchantments when failing (that game would make you go into negative enchantment with fails though), but that would probably also be a cash shop item, so we do need to be careful what we wish for.

[Krystallize]

Note: the following is me as a player, not as a mod.

If everything was easy, then everyone would have it and then it wouldn't be special anymore. That is a statement that holds true for every upgrade/chance thing in the game. Everyone thinks they want an easy way to get everything, but what they really mean is they want it only for themselves but not for their competition. Think about it- we want to upgrade our characters to compete with other people. And I know this thread isn't about getting everything easy.

When I started playing this game, I read guides while grinding. I knew before I got into it that a lot of this game's upper content is cash based. I also learned that cashers need gold too. So, while reading all these guides, I picked out what I wanted to spend all my gold on first. I wasn't a casher, didn't get VIP for quite some time. It was just a fun game to play at the time, and I never spend cash on games until I'm positive I will stick around a while.

My choice to start out with was a pet. I saw pictures of a Demon King and I wanted that, thought it would do well to assist with dungeons. From about week 2, I saved my gold. I bought firelord eggs every time I saw them, same with morph crystals. I got my baby demon for free from the green dragon hunt with my 1 green coin a day. I spent every bit of gold I had on morphs and eggs for 60 levels, when I hatched my firelord (I never counted the number of eggs I tried hatching over time). I got my Demon King (19 stars) shortly after from the morph crystals I'd been saving since the beginning (events at the time helped that along, Christmas is coming, maybe they will have similar events again). I was the 4th or 5th person on my server with a Demon King, and the first non-casher to get one. It is possible to get a Demon King for free, even without events that weren't there at the time. My Demon King is a Gen 3 now, and I know of people who have gotten their next gen pets with no cash as well.

While working on my pet, I upgraded my wings. My favorite part of the game was upgrading wings. When I rebirthed as a scion, I still had demigod wings. I now have extreme angel lord wings +2 (which I got before I rebirthed to eidolon), and I never paid cash for ethereal wings, and I don't plan to start (though I am a casual spender every once in a while- I'm addicted to coins, I'll admit), it was all ingame gold. I'm still slowly collecting wings. Rebirth packs help. Number of stars it takes to get an upgrade is a bit daunting, but I'm in no rush.

Sperion just came out. It's hard to judge something that's been out for less than a week. The first week the Fraggle weapons came out, everyone screamed cash shop. How many people do we know that actually spent cash to upgrade the Fraggle? There was maybe a few. Yes, the Sperion takes one cash shop only item to progress, but maybe the soul prints will be offered another way in due time. Let the cashers open their wallets to provide us will all sorts of guides and information before we spend our time and gold working for it, just like we did with the Fraggle weapons.

My point is, as a player, it's entirely possible to achieve goals without spending cash. And while failing an attempt sucks, not gaining stars sucks, and bad luck really sucks, it does in a way create a little bit of a balance. Cashers can't just open the cash shop and instantly have the best of everything (not that any of that stuff really means much if one does not work on soul), they fail at attempts too. Cashers do keep this game free for everyone else, so more power to them for spending. Thank you to the cashers for making it so I don't have to pay a dime unless I want to. So what if people choose to spend tons to get what they want faster than everyone else? In the end, when everyone has the same things, no one is going to remember who spent how much on what and everything will come down to soul anyway.

That said, it would be absolutely lovely to have some sort of way to prevent fails, like a game I played for a day recently that provided a stone of sorts to prevent losing enchantments when failing (that game would make you go into negative enchantment with fails though), but that would probably also be a cash shop item, so we do need to be careful what we wish for.

Thanks, MemoryLane.
I can definitely agree with you in some areas. If you put your mind to it you can definetly get what you want.
My main point here is - the cash player seems to always be stronger then the free player, and I just want that to change. Of course some elements of spending are great, and I admit to being an outfit lover. (Bunny got swag)
I swear, if you look at someone like Sanglay on Aurora Point, you just won't turn around and say that they arn't paying money on this game. There are SO many people that drop cash because they feel the need to have everything faster, and it's just not the kind of competitiveness some people are looking for. We need more balance of skill, where it's up to how you play the game and not just how much money you are spending.
The newer servers operate like this, too. It seems that everythings availiable there for them....and in Sengolia the older servers have people that can spend 3 MINUTES and solo it themselves. Further suggestions will be made for pvp arenas, but for now we'll be sticking to character building.
Hope to hear from more people soon, and thanks again Memory.

On a side note... 19 Stars?!

[R22059759]

No offense Memory but ur point of view is that of someone that was fairly lucky (except the 19 stars but at least u got them stars). Btw i just failed my 3rd gorilla attempt for the day. I'm selling everything and i'll keep trying till the end of this event. If i don't get it i'm positive i'll quit since this is pure stubborness not having fun. Cashing maybe 10 $ so i can keep trying.

I simply don't understand how these fails are meant to motivate me to play or to become competitive. I ve been watching since the beginning of last week's event how players that started playing months and months after me got simply lucky with morphing pets and mounts and i m still trying. Even if i'll get that mount eventually i'm not motivated anymore. I'll get eidolon probably just to see how it is then CS is gonna lose another player.

I would like you to understand something about cashers. Before the wave of merges our server S37 had practically 1 big casher left. Only 1. This game survived due to the small ones that get VIP and occasionally "cute" cash shop items,mounts, costumes, few eggs and such. U can't keep a server going for 1 casher. Though i'm grateful we have them (the ones that spend a bit more) they won't play alone. The game needs to cater to the majority and that's what we're trying to do. Check the toons of the ppl that posted here, we're not newbies or "poor". From a lvl 40 mortal's (normal player) point of view we're game gods lol.
That's game balance, that s how it should be.We have months and months of playing ahead of them. Instead we get lvl 50's running around with AL wings, burning angel, DK and riding gryphons and hellwings.

The suggestions we offered here are meant to improve the gameplay and the game experience for everyone not just for ourselves. How is it selfish to ask for that stupid fail system to be removed so every1 would have a fair chance ? Or pointing out that the cash shop should be an alternative/option only. This game is free to play after all, everyone should have access to the full game. If someone wants to skip ahead/get things faster fine, cash shop but nobody should have access to things that are unavalaible in game.

Gratz for getting ur DK but at some point before the last merge with bela's chasm we were unable to find anyone that sold FL eggs. Absolutely no access to that particular item.


PS when/if i get that darn ape i'm gonna delete it, i'm so mad. Oh wait, am I meant to get mad or relax while i have a game?


edit-it's Kayshah, donno why i keep getting logged with my alt account:S

[Butterfactory]

Summary of whole thread:

"*** this dude bought this Multi-Story bungalow omfgzzxzx I want one too, but I ain't gonna work for it. Cause even if I do, I may not be able to buy itzzz!!!"

The world is like this, you pay to win.

[Krystallize]

And that Multi Story Bungalow is Gen 5 DK.

[speeds16]

This thread seems more like trying to lower the amount of cashers which I don't get. If you made non-cash progress equal to cashed progress, you're taking away R2's income and in the end CS will vanish. Cashing will always get you faster progress, it's the way how MMORPG's work.

However until recently all progress was obtainable in-game except for EW: Major Enchantment stones and dragon crystals got loot-able with the release of lv100, GMUTs are possible to obtain in-game, just takes a lot of patience and perseverance. Which in the first post was mentioned too, but being a non-casher perseverance is what you need in order to make good progress.
But now with the Sperions introduced, it's just a closed off market: you can't trade any items looted in there, everything is bound (which seems like bull for dungeon loot), Soul prints are cash-shop only and the amount required raises by a lot as far as I heard.
The only items for Sperion that aren't bound are those that are cashed which makes it only more suspicious that R2 is aiming for cash: You can do dungeons but you can't make a profit out of it or help others. Those who can't solo it rely on those who cash. And if the demand for Soul print raises, cashers will be more happy to get them and sell through for high prices. Que the xtal-income.

I admit I have spend cash here, were it only for FL eggs and a few morphs cause event for those ended in order to get my BA (currently gen3 btw, as response to that gen5 example) at last. Yet I'm riding a Hellwing lv18, purely with ingame farming. An alt on hopefully his gryphon soon or definatly if it weren't for that cap, maxed out fraggle by grinding gems and bloodelars (still have nightmares of grinding SR again, darn droprate), and ended up with the stronger players eventho I'm competing with a lot of cashed toons.
It isn't cashing that needs to be tuned down here, lately it's the items obtainable in-game that isn't being increased while content is increased. Balance it out.
There is a quote somewhere of a GM in someone's signature that comes down to this kinda: "Everything in CS is obtainable, for those who don't cash it will only take more time". Sadly enough this doesn't count anymore.

[Krystallize]

It isn't a hate thread. We're simply here to balance it out just a bit more evenly. Some items just dont even need to be in the cash shop when they drop in game. Heroic Wings, Mount Upgrade Tokens, Major Enchantment Crystals and Dragon Crystals shouldn't be there at all. It'd be awesome if the only way to get Dragon Crystals was to get the rare drop from dungeons.

[R22059759]

If that's ur idea of a summary Butter maybe u should re-read. And maybe we should respect the effort of the thread starter and not troll.


@speeds-it's not a "hate thread". The main point is, the cash shop needs to be tweaked and the options u have there should exist ingame aswell. The cash shop prices even need tweaking, who s gonna pay xtals for a mut or hw. Would u? And let's say I want a FL too, i'd rather run dungeons or do quests for some eggs for 3 months than pay for a FLpack and get nothing. Considering my luck, the whole pack will fail anyway.

[Butterfactory]

It isn't a hate thread. We're simply here to balance it out just a bit more evenly. Some items just dont even need to be in the cash shop when they drop in game. Heroic Wings, Mount Upgrade Tokens, Major Enchantment Crystals and Dragon Crystals shouldn't be there at all. It'd be awesome if the only way to get Dragon Crystals was to get the rare drop from dungeons.

To be honest, event such as the current gmut exchange has already served its purpose of balancing non-cash players with those who cashed.
Yes, people who cash may get their mount quickly but also think about the amount they spend on it. 80 gmuts at the cost of $80 is very expensive. Just imagine the amount a casher spend for just their mount alone, when alt abuser could easily catch up on their mount upgrades using only in-game currency. Not to mention, within a 7 days period.

[Butterfactory]

If that's ur idea of a summary Butter maybe u should re-read. And maybe we should respect the effort of the thread starter and not troll.


@speeds-it's not a "hate thread". The main point is, the cash shop needs to be tweaked and the options u have there should exist ingame aswell. The cash shop prices even need tweaking, who s gonna pay xtals for a mut or hw. Would u? And let's say I want a FL too, i'd rather run dungeons or do quests for some eggs for 3 months than pay for a FLpack and get nothing. Considering my luck, the whole pack will fail anyway.

I don't think so, all you need is to level up to be able to access more dungeon. I can easily get 200 HW a day if I do all my dungeon runs. Choose one area you want to upgrade on and focus on it. If you focus on upgrading your weapon, sell your HW and buy FS with your profit. Once you're done with your weapon, focus on wings and this time sell your gems and FS. You can't be upgrading every single piece at once and expect to complete within 1-2 months. (If you're non-casher) The whole idea is to progress gradually.

As for FL eggs, you can get them by doing survival of the fittest.

I do agree that the item shop needs a major tweak on their prices though.

[Krystallize]

Thanks @ButterFactory,
It's great to hear different opinions about the arguement. The majority of players at the moment choose not to make alternate accounts and abuse the events, and we shouldn't have to anyway. It should be a given that eventually we have the opportunity to catch up to the cashers.

Hopefully better events will roll up soon. Glad you're with me on the price changes, and look forward to hearing more from you soon.

[khuongduy004]

It is not only about GMUTs, it is about everything else. While most of the things are attainable by non-cashers through longer time and harder works, many things will be forever out of reach of non-cashers unless R2 do something about it. A few systems that need to be revamped will be: Goddess system, wings upgrades pass UDG VIII, soul system (and potentially sperion system)

- Goddess system requires crystals to upgrade. So even if I have a gazillion gold, I still can't upgrade my goddess because it still requires crystals. Then assuming that I can get my maxed blessing, it requires a small amount of charm to use, and again, currently roses are cash-shop exclusive. Yes I know that we have had some rose events in the past, but unless we have a permanent way of getting roses (such as adding them into the green dragon hunt), the rose supply will be used up slowly and non-cashers who managed to do free offers to get the seal broken blessings will again unable to use their blessings.

- Upgrading wings pass AL should be self-explanatory. You need around 200 EWings for 1 upgrade at Angel Lord, I think around 400 for 1 upgrade at Extreme Angel Lord, and finally around 19-20 lucky stars on Ultimate demon lord. With the current amount of EWings flowing into the game, I must say that it is totally NOT enough for even 1 non-casher to catch up even if everyone pour their EWings into that person. Why don't they make the reward to be similar to pixie upgrade? An upgrade on pixie takes around 200+ PUC, and each reward gives around 2-6 PUC depends on the event and depends on your luck. It still take a long time, and is still hard to get, but at least I can foresee myself getting my pixie upgraded while I don't see myself getting pass Extreme AL anytime this year, unless miraculously we have an HWings -> EWings exchange or something similar to those GMUT exchange events.

- Soul should be reconsidered too, even though currently non-cashers still can get soul shards daily, but the amount is capped, and since soul shards are untradable, there is no amount of hard work can help you to break that cap. All you can do will be trying your best to gather soul shards, and watch cashers widening the soul gap by buying them from cash shop. If for GMUTs, EWings, Morph Crystals, you can farm them with alts and sheer hard work might yield something good in return, then for soul it is just impossible. Also, the amount of SS required is ridiculous. A single lvl 9 -> 10 soul upgrade costs 128 - 512 SS, and non-cashers are getting a maximum of 12 SS / day. So well, only a month for 1 upgrade, not so hard, you will hit 3000 soul after 3 or 4 years of playing this game. And before any of you say that "tradable soul shards will make people maxing out soul in a few weeks", then let me remind you that soul upgrade is still limited by puri cost and crystal essences. And tradable soul shards will bring more benefits than harms as it rewards the hard-working people who strive to catch up with cashers. A simple way to avoid exploit for this system will be to remove the daily exchange, or put a lvl requirement for daily exchange (eg. lvl 60+). This game is already encouraging non-cashers to abuse a billion of alts to catch up anyway, another thing like this that gives us a chance to catch up with cashers won't hurt.

[R22059759]

@ Butter--I get more than 200 hw/day if i do all my runs, tyvm. Slow progression....how slow exactly? 2 years to upgrade a battle bear? No, thanks, half a year of trying is long enough imo.The thing that bothers me most about CS is the randomness. Even for cashers there s no guaranteed success, i hope u realize that.
This thread is about an even playing field and ways to accomplish that. And don't give me the "pay to win that s how life is" this is just entertainment, not "life" Guess what its main purpose is? To be entertaining. When u fail everything and the only way is to pay real currency in order to get where u want u tend to like it a lot less. U don't like it, u quit. Many did, why else the wave of merges u think?

In the long run it is better to have many small cashers that keep playing than 1 big casher on an empty server. A game is not something u milk for a year then throw away, devs need to think how to keep ppl playing it. We're offering suggestions.


PS i can t seem to be able to log off my alt account


anyway before u send me to lvl again i play a scion 75 AM ranger. I'm happy enough with my progression (except the ape), not happy that inspite my efforts and the long hours of doing dungeons like an idiot i'm still way behind newer players (cashers or just lucky). And i'll stay behind unless

1. my luck changes suddenly
2. i win the lottery and decide to spalsh few thous on CS
3. The devs take suggestions into consideration and tweak the game to make it more balanced

I like option 3

[Krystallize]

@Khuongduy004
Although you made several good points, we will never catch up to the cash players. Infact, it is a granted fact that if you spend money on MMORPG you will be just that little bit better then the rest.
The point of this thread is to push through that the gap is simply too wide; and that it needs to be made smaller so that the non cashers can compete. I beleive after the cap of Demon Lord wings is raised, a new currency of Wing Material will be introduced, so they really need to do something about this.

I'm not saying to make the game easy and have no challenges, because I'm the type of girl who personally enjoys have a challenge - I find it quite fun. There's just no need to make the cash encouraged so much. R2 would already have enough money to keep funding the game AND have enough for themselves if they even still toned it down a little bit.