Knights Life is being Hell!!! HATE GUARDIAN RUNE!!!

[FufuBunnySlayer]

I disagree. It is very much a strategy game. Yes, strategy can be outweighed by an overwhelming BR difference, and if two players are using the exact same strategy, then the one with the higher BR should always win. It's a relationship. The success of a strategy depends upon how effective it is against another vs. the BR difference. The more effective the strategy, the lower (think negative numbers) the BR difference needs to be to lose. Though, to be fair, luck has a large effect, too, with crits and all the astrals that have a chance to proc (illusion, deflection, regeneration).

I do not believe guardian rune is a win button, nor do I believe the same of amnesia. They are both powerful runes and give an edge to whoever is using them depending on how they are used. I personally prefer guardian because it is less RNG dependent, i.e. it always reduces incoming damage by 70% vs. amnesia's chance to miss both opposing delphic and guard/amnesia rune.

[SlowPlay]

I disagree. It is very much a strategy game. Yes, strategy can be outweighed by an overwhelming BR difference, and if two players are using the exact same strategy, then the one with the higher BR should always win. It's a relationship. The success of a strategy depends upon how effective it is against another vs. the BR difference. The more effective the strategy, the lower (think negative numbers) the BR difference needs to be to lose.

A strategy game need more then a couple way to play it at least in my opinion. Wartune is pretty straight forward, crit is the best pve option, wd works best in pvp overall, hercules is the best pve sylph, medusa and triton are the best support sylph, the skill each class can use are limited and every possible skill setup have at least 3 skill that are the same for all the classes, rune same as before, 2 option for mage/archer and 2/3 for knights, everyone understood that stack electro res is a good way to be a pain in the *** even with low br etc etc, a strategy game where nearly everyone play the same way is not that strategic.

[MrFancyPants]

I had to test it, and res reduction is definitely capped. The difference between -100 res and -650 res is tiny, around 10%. So roughly -200 or less is the biggest advantage you can gain.

I was skeptical considering that athenas were not doing millions of damage to me and I have -200 light res.

So any res under 500 is basically worthless in high-level pvp, except to blunt the unawakened sylph attacks. And as stated, a lot of players have well over 700 res reduction, so the threshold of usefulness is insanely high. On the other hand, that does mean it's basically irrelevant which element you max resistance in, unless it's electro, dark, or to a much lesser extent, light or fire.

[FufuBunnySlayer]

A strategy game need more then a couple way to play it at least in my opinion. Wartune is pretty straight forward, crit is the best pve option, wd works best in pvp overall, hercules is the best pve sylph, medusa and triton are the best support sylph, the skill each class can use are limited and every possible skill setup have at least 3 skill that are the same for all the classes, rune same as before, 2 option for mage/archer and 2/3 for knights, everyone understood that stack electro res is a good way to be a pain in the *** even with low br etc etc, a strategy game where nearly everyone play the same way is not that strategic.

I don't disagree, per se. Wartune is straightforward, and relatively simple, and that is part of it's charm. I do think that there are...new ideas or at least differing ideas on what is best in both pvp and pve to allow for sufficient differences in strategy or play style ("strategy" is starting to not look like a word anymore with the amount I've read and typed it). That said, maybe I am confusing that with execution.

[SlowPlay]

I don't disagree, per se. Wartune is straightforward, and relatively simple, and that is part of it's charm. I do think that there are...new ideas or at least differing ideas on what is best in both pvp and pve to allow for sufficient differences in strategy or play style ("strategy" is starting to not look like a word anymore with the amount I've read and typed it). That said, maybe I am confusing that with execution.

Guess we just have different view of strategy games, that's all

[Zorich]

Sure zorich, lets nerf everything just for you.

Your reading comprehension is awful. That, or you're just an obnoxious troll. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Fufu the other part of you post wasn't that relevant, i know pvp is a joke but it's basically always been like that, wartune has never been a strategy game.

Zorich as i tought you don't know how res red works

I hope that last part was sarcasm .

As someone who's been going 14-1 in CW and taking down players 100k+ BR ahead of me, I'd like to think I have a firm grasp of how to win at PvP, especially when it comes to utilizing resists.

It's why I think that res reduce needs to be, well, reduced again or there needs to be more firm caps on damage reduction / amplification in PvP for resistances. It's just silly that I can sit in a PvP vs. an 800k Archer or Knight w/ a Hercules and pretty much default-attack them to death.

As it stands now, amplification is maxed at 20% or whatever. Someone did the math. Point I was making (not sure if your post was in reply to me or someone else), is that reduce res is sitting around 1k+ for most of the biggies. If your res is 840 or less (something like that), you may a well be wearing no res of that element at all because reduce res cuts through it completely. Only way to get above 840 or whatever is by having dims up (multiples, too, unless it's an expert or maybe an adv).

I agree with you that RES has a too large effect.

Are you certain about the 20%?

If it is, I don't see how going from 50 Resist deals me 1.5 Million Damage and having a 1450 Resist brings it down to 120k.

The only way is if that 1450 Resist got me a 90% reduce, which is highly unlikely My opponent, a majorly heavy casher, would have to be < 600 Res Reduce, and on a mathematical average, would still need to be doing a 25% Amplification. I know she carries 5 Dims and has all L6+ Res Crystals.

If you've got a link to testing on it, please share. I've been doing it fairly extensively myself by dualing characters in the Altar of Ennoblement. I'll go from 1k+ reduce to stripped gems (+300 or so) and that ~700 Pt swing will generally result in damage amplification anywhere from 50% to 75% depending where on the scale it was to begin with.

[FufuBunnySlayer]

Nope, just trusting what I've seen a few other trustworthy posters say. I've played with my res a bit and it seems to be reasonable, so I haven't bothered to look into it further.

[MrFancyPants]

Are you certain about the 20%?

If it is, I don't see how going from 50 Resist deals me 1.5 Million Damage and having a 1450 Resist brings it down to 120k.

The only way is if that 1450 Resist got me a 90% reduce, which is highly unlikely My opponent, a majorly heavy casher, would have to be < 600 Res Reduce, and on a mathematical average, would still need to be doing a 25% Amplification. I know she carries 5 Dims and has all L6+ Res Crystals.

If you've got a link to testing on it, please share. I've been doing it fairly extensively myself by dualing characters in the Altar of Ennoblement. I'll go from 1k+ reduce to stripped gems (+300 or so) and that ~700 Pt swing will generally result in damage amplification anywhere from 50% to 75% depending where on the scale it was to begin with.

Here's the results of some tests I just ran. In both cases, attacker was awakened Herc vs. unawakened triton user, to get a starting res as close to min as possible. First test, with all will crystals removed, target has -175 electro res, and attacker has 165 reduce res:


Second test, everything the same except that will crystals have been equipped, and attacker is now at 711 reduce res:


This is nowhere near comprehensive enough to determine what the cap is, although the "Reduce RES" values can give you a ballpark of maybe 20-30%, but it's pretty conclusive that there IS a cap, or the second test would have shown a substantially different result.

[SlowPlay]

Zorich beating up noobs doesn't make you pro :P For istance i went 14-1 as well when i had stacked electro (1st cw after dim were implemented, think i was one of the 1st and probably the only one on knight top that had stacked electro except ashira) and i was one of the noobs that thought mage attacks were electro because saw mage with dark do no damage on me so yeah, now you know how res red works at least

[KS222]

"I've seen chaos last 6 turn in arena"
Now you're just making a fool out of yourself.

Taken out of context. I clearly said it might be the result of lag or being hit by chaos more than once. Players on kongregate don't have the mini client available, so we don't even have that chance of lag mitigation in arena. As for your chance vs guaranteed, my point is that when you are debuffed by chaos, it may as well be 100% due to the fact you never know if it will work and would select skills under the assumption they'll be stolen. Making guardian last longer but be chance based may be a "fair" way to balance the rune.

Once again you missed my point, knight don't have guardian but you can use it in pvp

And you ignore the point I'm making. Guardian is OP when maxed, but its only 2 turns. A brief troll, not a show stopper. In my eyes, guardian is as unfair to knights and chaos is to mages. Now all we need is a rune that unfairly trolls archers more than the other classes and everyone can have a rune to hate.

I guess you're just trolling there but i'll reply anyway. This whole reply is based on the fact that player either don't go pet or both are alive after pet, sorry but i hardly see that happen even in a close pvp. If i oneshot someone with edd before 50% i'll kill him anyway with us,dw,us, on 50% you can't talk anymore about class skill, it's all about pet. I agree that if both player survive pet, amne+intercept is a good way to shut down the opponent for 1 or 2 turn but why should a knight carry a skill that he'll only gonna use in the rare case a pvp last that long? It's a waste, same goes for edd, edd is close to be op if used on 50% (that's why before block nerf and pet knight were so strong on pvp) but now it's just a waste of 2 turn (edd has afaik the longest casting time).

Trolling? Not really. Just pointing out that a 2 turn super defense troll isn't really a show stopper. There are lots of fights where my opponent doesn't even get to sylph; BR difference. In close fights vs someone near my BR or with high resist in the right element, it isn't uncommon for both of us to survive first sylph round. Bonus time makes surviving second and third sylph rounds very unlikely unless we both have very high res and barely scratch each other (its happened in Class Wars before, but the 3 min time limit keeps such comic fights from dragging out too long). The idea I've seen knights that can and do survive sylph round employ is simply to shut down the heals and dps into the ground. Amnesia + intercept does that pretty well, even if it is luck based. I never said EDD is one hit kill, just said it hurts in bonus time. If already hurt from sylph round, shut down on heals by amnesia and then rage theft, and then getting EDD in the face, that is a lot of damage for a mage to cope with. Toss sylph round 2 on them when they're not able to heal to full HP and barring luck trolls, you'll probably win.

[SlowPlay]

Taken out of context. I clearly said it might be the result of lag or being hit by chaos more than once. Players on kongregate don't have the mini client available, so we don't even have that chance of lag mitigation in arena. As for your chance vs guaranteed, my point is that when you are debuffed by chaos, it may as well be 100% due to the fact you never know if it will work and would select skills under the assumption they'll be stolen. Making guardian last longer but be chance based may be a "fair" way to balance the rune.

I've seen guardian last 4 turn in pvp. Ah btw i play on kong too and i know you lag badly.

And you ignore the point I'm making. Guardian is OP when maxed, but its only 2 turns. A brief troll, not a show stopper. In my eyes, guardian is as unfair to knights and chaos is to mages. Now all we need is a rune that unfairly trolls archers more than the other classes and everyone can have a rune to hate.

Ok as i said, try to play pvp without that 2 turn rune then you can come back there and say how you deal with guardian rune, also as i said before if guardian wasn't that good of a rune there would be way less people using it.

Trolling? Not really. Just pointing out that a 2 turn super defense troll isn't really a show stopper. There are lots of fights where my opponent doesn't even get to sylph; BR difference. In close fights vs someone near my BR or with high resist in the right element, it isn't uncommon for both of us to survive first sylph round. Bonus time makes surviving second and third sylph rounds very unlikely unless we both have very high res and barely scratch each other (its happened in Class Wars before, but the 3 min time limit keeps such comic fights from dragging out too long). The idea I've seen knights that can and do survive sylph round employ is simply to shut down the heals and dps into the ground. Amnesia + intercept does that pretty well, even if it is luck based. I never said EDD is one hit kill, just said it hurts in bonus time. If already hurt from sylph round, shut down on heals by amnesia and then rage theft, and then getting EDD in the face, that is a lot of damage for a mage to cope with. Toss sylph round 2 on them when they're not able to heal to full HP and barring luck trolls, you'll probably win.

Once again, out of 10 pvp how many time both player survive after pet? Now from that remove the time when both have the right res stacked, how many left now? I don't see what's the point of talkin about skill on 50% while on 50% you're either on pet or dead 9 time out of 10.
Also it's fun how you think knight are unkillable and never take damage, a knight should do intercept, amne, edd and ofc he won't take any damage right? And the knight have to hope to lock heal/guardian, i like your "use skill and pray to be lucky" strategy but i don't like to rely on luck for anything tbh.

[daunapu]

TL

Are you Zorich alt or what? You both have the habbit to write walls of text and use examples that happen once in 100 fights as fact on which to base your theories.

[pietjeprecies]

Your reading comprehension is awful. That, or you're just an obnoxious troll. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

All I see is you saying mage's heal is perfectly normal, while it's quite obvious its not, you're just trying to bore the hell out of everyone by writing complete books with non valid or outdated arguments in an attempt to defend it.

You lost a fight against someone you have beated once before, and now you're asking for another dim nerf.

You sure I am the troll here?

[Zorich]

Are you Zorich alt or what? You both have the habbit to write walls of text and use examples that happen once in 100 fights as fact on which to base your theories.

Sorry some of us are educated enough to read / respond in proper paragraph form. Sorry that some of us like to use actual examples and statistics to back our arguments. I'd say that I'd try to stick to 2-line replies, but I'm not interested in limiting myself or stifling my opinion for the likes of you or your ilk. The only time 2-sentence replies seem to suffice is when someone's only desire is to insult another.

All I see is you saying mage's heal is perfectly normal, while it's quite obvious its not, you're just trying to bore the hell out of everyone by writing complete books with non valid or outdated arguments in an attempt to defend it.

It's only obvious to you and a select few who want your non-Mage class to be utterly dominant. You don't seem to get that what you keep saying over and over is essentially this:

Let's take the worst DPS class with the worst Rage Regen, worst damage mitigation and lowst HP / PDef and nerf the one thing they've got - heals. Oh, and then let's also take away the Guardian Rune. That'll serve em.

You may as well be standing in the middle of cloud city waving a sign that says, "Keep Mages in PvE" with your list of demands. And oh, btw - Mages suck there too. Worst gains in WB and worst DPS for progression in combats with nuke-based timers like Necro, Purgatory, Sky Trail and God's Descent.

So please, try to take a step back and get some perspective.

You lost a fight against someone you have beated once before, and now you're asking for another dim nerf.

Incorrect, I won a fight against someone 200k BR ahead of me (by gearing up a 1450 resist against them) after I originally lost to them.

You try to make it sound like I'm whining here for a nerf because I lost. The reality is that I'm suggesting a nerf because I actually beat someone 200k BR ahead of me simply because I popped 3 Electro Dims and made sure I ran 5 L7 Electro Resist Crystals. Tuning yourself to have 90% DR (after all other DRs) vs. the most common pet isn't balance. It's silly. In PvE I can see it being fine since it's kinda needed in things like Sky Trail and God's Descent - but in PvP, it'd be nice for elemental resists to be capped at 50%. Still a tremendous resist, but not so ludicrous that it leaves someone with 100k+ BR not doing enough damage to even move the HP bar.

You sure I am the troll here?

Actually, every time you write something lately, you pretty much prove it.

Seriously Q though - what happened to you man? Are you someone new who has this account? Cause the pietjeprecies I used to read posts from was a really level-headed dude. A dude who now seems to have gone completely off the deep end lately with insults and personal attacks. You're becoming the new AntiApartheid where it pertains to you following me from post to post with insults when arguments aren't going your way.

And not for nothing - downvoting someone for not presenting an opinion you don't like is fairly childish. I like to personally reserve downvotes for people who derail arguments and commit personal attacks. You've admitted to downvoting me - and it's among 2 I've ever received here. The "Knight Attack Speed" thread alone got me 8 upvotes - so obviously people generally think I'm adding to the conversation here. How many downvotes have you gotten in the past week with the attitude you've shown?

I've seen guardian last 4 turn in pvp. Ah btw i play on kong too and i know you lag badly.

As you said, that's probably you speed-casting + him lagging.

But for some it's just a strategy. Not one I'm a fan of normally, but I can see where it might serve some well. You can counter it a few ways. You can spam default attacks until the 2nd post-guardian skill is shown as selected or you can revert to slow cast as well provided that you don't have that speed-up triggered.

Whether I encounter a Mage or Archer doing it, I just spam basic powers in speed cast until it's ready to come off. After all, awakening pts aren't drained per action, but via time. Only Delphics and certain powers reduce your awakening pts in addition to the time drain.

As a Knight, if you're getting off a dual basic + free default attack in between their guardian delays, it's actually quite better damage than slow-casting a 300% attack - and taking off no extra awakening.

[daunapu]

Sorry some of us are educated enough to read / respond in proper paragraph form. Sorry that some of us like to use actual examples and statistics to back our arguments. I'd say that I'd try to stick to 2-line replies, but I'm not interested in limiting myself or stifling my opinion for the likes of you or your ilk. The only time 2-sentence replies seem to suffice is when someone's only desire is to insult another.

Using lot of words doesn't make your argument more valid, nor is a good way to be heared.

And again, stop using ridiculous examples to show your theories. Knights almost never survive sylph rounds to use your "strategies". So don't give us examples of such fights, that probably even happened to you when you fight other classes that oh, surprise, use guardian rune on sylph delphics and so prolong the fight beyond sylph stage.

And this is the best and most comprehensive example i can think of how and why this damn rune is op so even the likes of you can understand at last.