Knights Life is being Hell!!! HATE GUARDIAN RUNE!!!

[Littlelyseria]

I like this logic. "Fully healing myself is ok, but fully healing my opponent, cause he was so damn lucky with a applying debuff proc and skill choice and actual rune proc is a massive troll"

Ok.

The point of casting restoration or any heal skill or to heal myself and not the enemy, that's why i call chaos rune the troll rune because you can screw up a mage
skill that's ok with a single click and potentially prevent more heal casts because of the "what if i heal him/her" again.

If R2 made a question to people with "what changes would you like in-game?" i'd basically vote or post to let advance guardian to all classes but making chaos
rune only applicable on damage skills, this way knights gain something and mages gain something too because archers lose 0 because of chaos in a 1 vs 1 fight.

[SlowPlay]

In this wot you missed the point all the time. Let's try again.

Chaos is luck based, but the player has no way of knowing if it will fail or not. I don't care too much about nuking my own troops, but full healing my opponent is a rather massive troll, especially if I"m low enough HP to be casting heal in the first place. When chaosed, I resort to heal rune if I need a heal because healing my opponent does me far more harm than getting a crappy (by comparison) heal does. I've seen chaos last 6 turns in arena; might be the other team just spams it so much that I'm perpetually chaosed and can't see when one ends and next one begins. Lag also makes chaos last longer; this is probably because its based off of my turns rather than opponent's turns, so if I'm lagging, the opponent gets more hits while I'm chaosed. Chaos has 2 points of fail; maxed chaos has only one since chance to stick is 100%. It has chance to stick and chance to steal a skill. Chaos would be more powerful if it could steal every skill, but runes and certain skills (agoran, for example) can never be stolen. A chaosed knight can often blow 3 turns without using any skill chaos can steal. Mages can't except in 1 vs 1, where all chaos does is give strong chance of heal theft.

Once again, you'd rather have a chance to reduce damage guardian rune that last 3 turn or a sure damage reduce for 2 turn? You'd like to face a 100% skill thief chaos for 2 turn or a chance to steal for 3 turn is better to face?
"I've seen chaos last 6 turn in arena"
Now you're just making a fool out of yourself.
Also this

I like this logic. "Fully healing myself is ok, but fully healing my opponent, cause he was so damn lucky with a applying debuff proc and skill choice and actual rune proc is a massive troll"

Ok.

I don't care if people use guardian against me. Its part of the game and I adapted to deal with it. Nerf my delphic and I know your guardian is on cd when cue thunderer. Use it to nerf my thunderer, and I know you'll be on cd when I have sylph delphic ready. I don't rely on my sylph delphic for kills. I am deadly in and out of sylph mode.

If you rely on your sylph delphic for kills, that might be why guardian rune is such an issue for you. Adapt. Work around it. Bring your delphic and drop an EDD in your opponent's face in bonus time.

Once again you missed my point, knight don't have guardian but you can use it in pvp, that mean that even if opponent has guardian u have the chance to use the same rune, while knight don't have anything like that. Shield is counter of restore, apollo is same as sunt/is (is is far better because deal damage while reduce opponent damage), archer can also ss shield and apollo, mage could with purge rune, knight have no way to counter guardian rune except survive opponent hit and outdamage them, there's no strategy involved there, a knight need to be stronger then opponent to kill him while an overall weaker archer/mage can kill a (little) stronger knight thanks to guardian. Also if you wanna talk about how you deal with guardian, try to go in bg with amne/heal instead of guardian heal then come back there and say the result.

From what I've seen, amnesia never blocks marriage skill, so if you have maxed amnesia, you'll block 5/8 of the available moves (stun, runes, skills). No skill ever gets blocked twice (you always block 5 skills, not randomly block 5 and sometimes have it double up and really block only 4 or 3). It seems fairly random and I haven't seen any particular thing always get blocked, so there is roughly a 62% chance for each skill to be blocked by amnesia. The chances are pretty good that you'll block at least one, if not both. I've seen knights use intercept + amnesia for a total shutdown, then follow with EDD. Its a pretty potent combo. In bonus time, that rage theft is near total. If they have sylph ready afterwards, it leaves the mage without enough rage for heal, possibly with blocked rune, and having to try to tank sylph mode without full HP.

These are tactics I've seen used and seen work. It may not be your style. If you prefer to leave your hardest hits at home and then complain that guardian is unfair, that's your choice. The odds of the devs changing guardian any time soon are pretty small, so I'd say you'd be happier if you adapt your skills to get wins in spite of super defense troll.

I guess you're just trolling there but i'll reply anyway. This whole reply is based on the fact that player either don't go pet or both are alive after pet, sorry but i hardly see that happen even in a close pvp. If i oneshot someone with edd before 50% i'll kill him anyway with us,dw,us, on 50% you can't talk anymore about class skill, it's all about pet. I agree that if both player survive pet, amne+intercept is a good way to shut down the opponent for 1 or 2 turn but why should a knight carry a skill that he'll only gonna use in the rare case a pvp last that long? It's a waste, same goes for edd, edd is close to be op if used on 50% (that's why before block nerf and pet knight were so strong on pvp) but now it's just a waste of 2 turn (edd has afaik the longest casting time).

The point of casting restoration or any heal skill or to heal myself and not the enemy, that's why i call chaos rune the troll rune because you can screw up a mage
skill that's ok with a single click and potentially prevent more heal casts because of the "what if i heal him/her" again.

If R2 made a question to people with "what changes would you like in-game?" i'd basically vote or post to let advance guardian to all classes but making chaos
rune only applicable on damage skills, this way knights gain something and mages gain something too because archers lose 0 because of chaos in a 1 vs 1 fight.

The only place i'm using chaos atm is arena and tok, i'm not using it anymore on bg because it's just not worth it, amne is an allaround better rune. I think more player will change from chaos to amne with time. And just to add, i'd be fine if chaos works on shield too, seem pretty dumb to me that it doesn't work on shield but does work on apollo. The way u suggested chaos to work would only hit archer basically because mage and knight would have the way to avoid chaos which would be unfair, i don't really know how they could balance chaos to make it work on archer (knight as i said would be steal shield).

[Arlad]

If R2 made a question to people with "what changes would you like in-game?" i'd basically vote or post to let advance guardian to all classes but making chaos rune only applicable on damage skills, this way knights gain something and mages gain something too because archers lose 0 because of chaos in a 1 vs 1 fight.

if it was me, i'd rather change the rune works like agoran shield. 30% for max lvl, 40% for max advance. would be a win-win resolution for all classes.

[SlowPlay]

if it was me, i'd rather change the rune works like agoran shield. 30% for max lvl, 40% for max advance. would be a win-win resolution for all classes.

Uhm except shield is 20%? Or you mean apollo?

[Arlad]

Uhm except shield is 20%? Or you mean apollo?

ok, 20% max/ 30% advance max then. happy now?

[Zorich]

So really, the issue here is rune imbalance. In summary:

• Guardian isn't Purgeable
• Guardian is OP based on Advanced Max %

I assume nerfing one or the other of these would suffice to creating a balance in most people's eyes.

I don't think most Mages or Archers would care if either of these were to happen, as long as we got our refund on runestones. My Purge is only 56%. Going back to 50% ain't that big a deal, and I'll just drop it into my heal, which is still only 34%. I don't do Sylph Bosses or Tanks, so I'm way behind on Runes for my BR / time played.

Now here's my Q regarding making it subject to dispel: If it were able to be purged, what would you do? Would you carry Heal & Purge Runes? Would you hold heal in reserve despite taking multiple 200%+ Attacks in an enemy's pet form so that you can hold that Purge back? That's the tricky thing. The 20s CD on Purge after a Heal. Chances are you'd be unlikely to use it to counteract a Guardian, and if you did, you'd be leaving yourself vulnerable w/o healing.

When a Mage w/ Gaia & it's Haunt power drops your Bubble and Apollo and starts to lay into you with a series of 215%, 230%, 221%, 310% and 215% (2nd time) Attacks - all at 50% amplification - you're not likely going to survive w/o that Heal Rune - unless you've got exceptional Dark Resist. You'll generally have to be utterly confident that your Delphic will end them.

Again, it's why I think a Knight is better served with a Triton pet. A 300% Single-Attack w/ 25s CD (3 uses per awaken cycle) getting combined with all that damage prevention and healing... Whew, it's brutal. The one thing you need to do as a Triton user is focus on Electric Resist. If you have all L7 Elec Resist plus two Intermediate Elec Dims that's +450 from Crystals, +100 From Dims and +90 from the Dim Elec Resist Crystal % Bonuses. In total, 640 Resist, less the -200 Triton Base is 440 Resist. Not great, but not horrible. You carry a 3rd Int and it goes from 440 Resist to 535 Resist. That's about 65% before Res Reduce. Not bad.

One Adv combined with two Int Dims and you're running 80% Resist before Reduction, even on a Triton.

It's what I'm building my alt towards, and it's been coming along very nicely.

[SlowPlay]

So really, the issue here is rune imbalance. In summary:

• Guardian isn't Purgeable
• Guardian is OP based on Advanced Max %

I assume nerfing one or the other of these would suffice to creating a balance in most people's eyes.

I don't think most Mages or Archers would care if either of these were to happen, as long as we got our refund on runestones. My Purge is only 56%. Going back to 50% ain't that big a deal, and I'll just drop it into my heal, which is still only 34%. I don't do Sylph Bosses or Tanks, so I'm way behind on Runes for my BR / time played.

You wouldn't mind, i'm pretty sure many others would.

Now here's my Q regarding making it subject to dispel: If it were able to be purged, what would you do? Would you carry Heal & Purge Runes? Would you hold heal in reserve despite taking multiple 200%+ Attacks in an enemy's pet form so that you can hold that Purge back? That's the tricky thing. The 20s CD on Purge after a Heal. Chances are you'd be unlikely to use it to counteract a Guardian, and if you did, you'd be leaving yourself vulnerable w/o healing.

It's the best option for me, purge (and only purge) being able to remove somehow guardian, if only knight purge would be fair for archer since they can't have purge.

When a Mage w/ Gaia & it's Haunt power drops your Bubble and Apollo and starts to lay into you with a series of 215%, 230%, 221%, 310% and 215% (2nd time) Attacks - all at 50% amplification - you're not likely going to survive w/o that Heal Rune - unless you've got exceptional Dark Resist. You'll generally have to be utterly confident that your Delphic will end them.

You look too much at % of attacks while you forget that aegis is a patk sylph, it does really little damage compared to an hercules.

Again, it's why I think a Knight is better served with a Triton pet. A 300% Single-Attack w/ 25s CD (3 uses per awaken cycle) getting combined with all that damage prevention and healing... Whew, it's brutal. The one thing you need to do as a Triton user is focus on Electric Resist. If you have all L7 Elec Resist plus two Intermediate Elec Dims that's +450 from Crystals, +100 From Dims and +90 from the Dim Elec Resist Crystal % Bonuses. In total, 640 Resist, less the -200 Triton Base is 440 Resist. Not great, but not horrible. You carry a 3rd Int and it goes from 440 Resist to 535 Resist. That's about 65% before Res Reduce. Not bad.

One Adv combined with two Int Dims and you're running 80% Resist before Reduction, even on a Triton.

Sure, i'd like to face your 640 res with my 730 res reduction and oneshot you all day long. Really, if you think that 535 res is enough i don't know which game you're playing. Averange res red at lvl 80 now is around 700, decent is 800, op is 1k+. If you run around with adv electro dim (let's even say 2) what tell you that your opponent wouldn't have 2 adv dim too and have op res red? Also what are the odds on getting 2 adv electro dim? (so far i got 1 adv dark, 1 adv electro, 1 adv win and 1 expert water). And remember that dimension do expire, you can't rely on dim to survive while using triton, it's a suicide. This tactic could work on lower level when you just need to run basic/int dim and yeah you can keep 5 active of those of the same type pretty much always.

[FufuBunnySlayer]

You wouldn't mind, i'm pretty sure many others would.

I would mind mainly because it would make only two strategies viable:

1. Stack electro res to make herc do nothing.

2. Run herc and bum rush delphic.

With as high as res reduce is now (~1k), slyph damage will be unreduced (unless you're carrying multiple dimensions). Having res crystals isn't enough to reduce damage anymore. That means, the huge DPS of herc now hits you hard. As it stands now, guard mitigates herc (and cerb, though you see far fewer cerbs in BG) enough that you don't have to use one of a few limited strategies. Basically, it'd make all other slyph choices no longer viable unless you are running 1200+ electro res (likely would want higher).

Bum rushing delphic is kinda lame. Yeah, it's basically what CW was for archers for many months...not to mention a lot of BG fights. It's just...boring, and, in most cases, whoever's delphic goes off first wins. Other stats just need to be reasonably similar. Just slyph-shock chain-delphic and hope yours goes off first. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I'm enjoying CW more since they changed the format to include slyphs. More viable strategies to employ, test, play with. Seeing someone else do something unexpected and beat yer buns because of it...and/or you doing the same to someone else.

Now...if you had also listed "Give knights guardian rune" as an option, I would not disagree as strongly. I'd rather them not, because it balances out (imo) some of the pvp benefits knights lord over archers. Not sure how the pvp breakdown goes anymore (especially with RES having such a huge effect now, not to mention slyphs themselves), but archers are the bottom of the pvp ladder and almost always have been (that brief period when clothes came out and you could lead with aoe took dominance away from mages for a bit). I like being able to beat up on some knights. The smart ones (and the really big ones) still give me trouble, as they should, but there's a chance of winning where there wasn't before. I know this is not an impartial reason, heh.

[SlowPlay]

Now...if you had also listed "Give knights guardian rune" as an option, I would not disagree as strongly. I'd rather them not, because it balances out (imo) some of the pvp benefits knights lord over archers. Not sure how the pvp breakdown goes anymore (especially with RES having such a huge effect now, not to mention slyphs themselves), but archers are the bottom of the pvp ladder and almost always have been (that brief period when clothes came out and you could lead with aoe took dominance away from mages for a bit). I like being able to beat up on some knights. The smart ones (and the really big ones) still give me trouble, as they should, but there's a chance of winning where there wasn't before. I know this is not an impartial reason, heh.

This just state perfectly why guardian rune is op, an archer shouldn't be able to kill a stronger knight just thanks to a rune, same way a knight can't kill a stronger mage and a mage can't kill a stronger archer given similar res and res red, guardian rune broke the chain and made archer and mage far more stronger while knight got a huge kick in the *** with block nerf (both block heal and penetration), ofc you like to have more strategy to play but try to look at it with knight eyes, the only strategy knight can run against guardian is nuke and hope to survive opponent hits, there's no strategy in that, you just need to be stronger and it's kinda lame. Also i'd like to remember you that archer not only got advanced guardian rune but also got a pretty op +10% damage with adv class, now you can tell me that knight have more pdef, sure but we both know that the part before pet is basically irrelevant now in close battle since both can heal up all the damage taken with an heal rune. Kinda sucks that you mage and archer can't see how much guardian benefit you and how they did nerf knights (and i'm totally aware that block heal was op, but the nerf they did is just dumb).

[MrFancyPants]

I really don't get how anyone thinks making guardian purgeable would add any balance at all. I often see it used reactively, where you are already committed to one attack, so you're talking about being able to purge for one attack in that case. Even if your attack goes off before the rune casts, so you can purge the full 2 turns, why would you bring purge in the first place, when you can bring amnesia, and not only have a good chance of preventing the rune from being used at all, but also cut off other potentially powerful skills? Granted, purge would be effective with a lot less runestones invested, but guardian isn't dominant until it's over 50%, so not unreasonable to assume a high level amnesia.

Since there's no way they are going to roll back the advanced guardian rune, the best suggestion I've seen is to just let everyone have every rune. Each one has their own niche uses, and no one would be able to complain about unfairness any more.

[Zorich]

Just want to chime in on one aspect of res reduce ppl are overlooking.

If one has an 800 Res Reduce and Encounters someone with, lets say, a 200 Resist, they're effective having their damage amplified as if the person's resist is -600. This affect doesn't apply in PvE, but it very much does so in PvP. You can see that there's a definite adverse effect from a -200 giving your enemy a 24% Damage Boost against you.

So while yes, a 640 resist vs. a 730 res reduction is still functionally a -90 value, it's not like where you're running -200 to start and the 730 stacks to give your enemy a 90% Damage Boost - because that's actually what it does.

Taking delphic damage in the range of -100 to +100 resist after reduction should be survivable for most equal BR types. The reason I started testing all this out was when I got hit by Nippa's Herc Delphic for 1.5 Million Damage @ 50%. I was running only 50 Resist and she had multiple Adv Dims. Within a month I had an Expert Elec and 2 Adv Elec and her Delphic only hit me for 120k @ 50%. At the time she was nearly 200k BR ahead of me as well.

The game is really more about strategic resists than anything right now. Personally I think Res Reduce needs to get nerfed again (I'm running well over 1k) and that PvP Resists should cap at a 50% Reduction and 25% Amplification. It's kinda silly that I can take shots from a nearly 800k Archer w/ Hercules without worry and then he comes back with an Athena and what was a 100k or so Delphic turns into an 800k Delphic . It's just too big a damage swing based on energy type.

[pietjeprecies]

Sure zorich, lets nerf everything just for you.

[Tranc3motion]

Just want to chime in on one aspect of res reduce ppl are overlooking.

If one has an 800 Res Reduce and Encounters someone with, lets say, a 200 Resist, they're effective having their damage amplified as if the person's resist is -600. This affect doesn't apply in PvE, but it very much does so in PvP. You can see that there's a definite adverse effect from a -200 giving your enemy a 24% Damage Boost against you.

So while yes, a 640 resist vs. a 730 res reduction is still functionally a -90 value, it's not like where you're running -200 to start and the 730 stacks to give your enemy a 90% Damage Boost - because that's actually what it does.

Taking delphic damage in the range of -100 to +100 resist after reduction should be survivable for most equal BR types. The reason I started testing all this out was when I got hit by Nippa's Herc Delphic for 1.5 Million Damage @ 50%. I was running only 50 Resist and she had multiple Adv Dims. Within a month I had an Expert Elec and 2 Adv Elec and her Delphic only hit me for 120k @ 50%. At the time she was nearly 200k BR ahead of me as well.

The game is really more about strategic resists than anything right now. Personally I think Res Reduce needs to get nerfed again (I'm running well over 1k) and that PvP Resists should cap at a 50% Reduction and 25% Amplification. It's kinda silly that I can take shots from a nearly 800k Archer w/ Hercules without worry and then he comes back with an Athena and what was a 100k or so Delphic turns into an 800k Delphic . It's just too big a damage swing based on energy type.

Or you can spread out your resist xtal/dimension across all the elements rather than stacking electro...

[FufuBunnySlayer]

This just state perfectly why guardian rune is op, an archer shouldn't be able to kill a stronger knight just thanks to a rune, same way a knight can't kill a stronger mage and a mage can't kill a stronger archer given similar res and res red, guardian rune broke the chain and made archer and mage far more stronger while knight got a huge kick in the *** with block nerf (both block heal and penetration), ofc you like to have more strategy to play but try to look at it with knight eyes, the only strategy knight can run against guardian is nuke and hope to survive opponent hits, there's no strategy in that, you just need to be stronger and it's kinda lame. Also i'd like to remember you that archer not only got advanced guardian rune but also got a pretty op +10% damage with adv class, now you can tell me that knight have more pdef, sure but we both know that the part before pet is basically irrelevant now in close battle since both can heal up all the damage taken with an heal rune. Kinda sucks that you mage and archer can't see how much guardian benefit you and how they did nerf knights (and i'm totally aware that block heal was op, but the nerf they did is just dumb).

So you ignore the important 2/3s of my post and decide to reply only to the part that I said was biased. Good job.

Just want to chime in on one aspect of res reduce ppl are overlooking.

If one has an 800 Res Reduce and Encounters someone with, lets say, a 200 Resist, they're effective having their damage amplified as if the person's resist is -600. This affect doesn't apply in PvE, but it very much does so in PvP. You can see that there's a definite adverse effect from a -200 giving your enemy a 24% Damage Boost against you.

So while yes, a 640 resist vs. a 730 res reduction is still functionally a -90 value, it's not like where you're running -200 to start and the 730 stacks to give your enemy a 90% Damage Boost - because that's actually what it does.

Taking delphic damage in the range of -100 to +100 resist after reduction should be survivable for most equal BR types. The reason I started testing all this out was when I got hit by Nippa's Herc Delphic for 1.5 Million Damage @ 50%. I was running only 50 Resist and she had multiple Adv Dims. Within a month I had an Expert Elec and 2 Adv Elec and her Delphic only hit me for 120k @ 50%. At the time she was nearly 200k BR ahead of me as well.

The game is really more about strategic resists than anything right now. Personally I think Res Reduce needs to get nerfed again (I'm running well over 1k) and that PvP Resists should cap at a 50% Reduction and 25% Amplification. It's kinda silly that I can take shots from a nearly 800k Archer w/ Hercules without worry and then he comes back with an Athena and what was a 100k or so Delphic turns into an 800k Delphic . It's just too big a damage swing based on energy type.

As it stands now, amplification is maxed at 20% or whatever. Someone did the math. Point I was making (not sure if your post was in reply to me or someone else), is that reduce res is sitting around 1k+ for most of the biggies. If your res is 840 or less (something like that), you may a well be wearing no res of that element at all because reduce res cuts through it completely. Only way to get above 840 or whatever is by having dims up (multiples, too, unless it's an expert or maybe an adv).

I agree with you that RES has a too large effect.

[SlowPlay]

Fufu the other part of you post wasn't that relevant, i know pvp is a joke but it's basically always been like that, wartune has never been a strategy game.

Zorich as i tought you don't know how res red works