Knights Life is being Hell!!! HATE GUARDIAN RUNE!!!

[jbyram2]

Chaos affects active skills, block heal is a passive skill. Should a chaosed archer give rage to the enemy when he crits?

[pietjeprecies]

However, while under Chaos, block heal should affect the enemy if it's triggered. Just like Resto / Sunto / BL. *waits for the Knight's reaction*

Your stupidity makes me think you're on r2's payroll.

[Littlelyseria]

You guys have the gun loaded at all times lol, Zorich gave you a good example on a good block adjustment that "should" (you know what this words means right?)
have a drawback which is being it able to get stolen with chaos like all the heals from mages and all you give is a wrong comparison and a troll post.

[Energizalo]

It's okay to nerf guard rune - but ONLY if they nerf chaos and amnesia too, and give back all the runestone we spend on them. Otherwise, not.

[Zorich]

You guys have the gun loaded at all times lol, Zorich gave you a good example on a good block adjustment that "should" (you know what this words means right?)
have a drawback which is being it able to get stolen with chaos like all the heals from mages and all you give is a wrong comparison and a troll post.

It's ok Littlelyseria. pietjeprecies has been trolling me a while now. It's why I posted that last line.

The truth is that a small and very vocal group of knights just want a return to knight's utter dominance as it was for a time before block-heal got nerfed.

piet - you can ignore the rest - I'm going to "write a book" and explain my experiences.

Top-end knights back then would run purple iris , ignore the enemy troops, regain 12k+ HP per block, two or three times per round, pop bubble and apollo, use a heal rune and just wait for the 50% mark to EDD and one-shot a Mage. If a Mage could actually defend a little and threaten them in the 50% mark, they'd go to Iris and spam-heal until they came out and used the EDD at 100% to one-shot. A Knight or Archer using an Iris then was proven to be a far superior healer than a Mage. Knights got to invoke the 20% Heal Boost on themselves. Archers got to invoke the 20% Crit Boost on Heal.

There was a point that I was in the top-10 x-server players in R2games and I couldn't beat knights that were 50k BR below me when they used that tactic.

Back then, when top-end Knights had 300k+ HP and 65k Attack or so, the Iris 15s CD heal would crit-heal for 125k - 150k and Rain Dance would crit-heal for 200k - 240k. They would awaken, heal 125k, Tsunami to remove enemy troops (and clear self-Bleed), Delphic (+Stun), heal 125k, rain dance (200k+ Healing to top off) and then come out with Brutality and EDD - usually ending it. And during that span they'd also passive-heal from block another 150k+ HP.

Those days are gone. They don't like it. Block-Heal was nerfed (over-nerfed if you ask me). They don't like that Mage's now have decent HP from things like Pets, Fate & Gems (those account for > 300k of my HP) and that the 50% one-shot from EDD is gone. They don't like that we've all learned and started carrying Elec Resist - because they all love that 470% Herc Delphic as a potential one-shot. They don't like that we've also learned that outside of CW, it's better to carry 8 PDef Gems.

But to be fair - the vast majority of Knights have adapted and are just as tough to beat as ever on a BR for BR basis.

It would be nice if they Advanced Purification and Purge Runes.

If Purge Adv Rune dispelled "undispellable" effects like Brutality, Guardian, Medusa Brutality and Triton Shield starting at 20% and up to 100% effectiveness at max level, it would be desirable.

If Puri Adv Rune was immune to Chaos effect and had a 20% to 100% (at max) chance to give a 2-round "Bubble" of debuff protection it'd be a Group PvP Mainstay as an Amnesia / Chaos shield.

And then make all those mid-level Runes available to all classes.

[SlowPlay]

@Zorich, agreed on iris/triton being op if it wasn't weak against hercules (said before everyone would use triton if it was weak to another kind of sylph) which should let you understand why some player find mage heals op atm.
I've always be above averange so never really felt the nerf of block heal, the only difference from before and after is that i use heal rune more often, i find adv guardian rune way too op, amnesia is luck based, chaos is luck based (basically the only 2 decent rune a knight can use given heal rune a must for all classes), guardian is a sure chance to reduce damage by 70% once maxed, it's way too much, i think the only way to make it less op is to give adv purge rune (and puri, who cares) so that purge can remove guardian according to his level.

@lyseria, trust me u wouldn't like a knight with guardian rune, it'd make knight way too op.

Also about block heal, seen the cap is gonna be 40k sooner or later, i feel like 7road doesn't really know how to deal with that passive. About chaos on block heal, as much as it doesn't make sense i don't think any knight would really care about 3 block/heal being stolen.

Did read what i wrote and meh, sorry it's late and i suck at english.

[KS222]

Most easy is walk without troops then chaos rune is useless not see very smart use chaos rune at start, Mage Aoe not hit itself if no have troops + archers not get any help when do bloodthirsty strike to get hp when hit main toon. but you can use Chaos on archer if you wanna give extra hp themself so they can drain own troop hp. Anyway I don't play knight but only thing is that Guardian rune cannot be reason to lose low br just cause you did not read forum and decided choose knight. Some not know how use that guardian rune even, some does. And High br knight can do shield when other people go sylph you can be sure that sylph user won't come back just ss shield away.. if you low lvl you not need shield take attack skills + now you got df what all knights complained long long time use it when you finally got it.

And most of knights takes Triton it has nice ice shield better than knight shield. Can be ss away too but other sylph user not waste turn ss it can take delphic from hercules sylph without dying, but cause it's good only for healing you need really think where you use it and against what type players. If you use against mages Triton skills are just like fart at wind. To archers and other knights it can make some damage depending are they sylphed or not.

Triton is the tankiest sylph in the game with its heal skills and its shield. Considering its weak vs the highest single target dps sylph in the game, it needs to have skills to tank & recover after those nukes. Triton is very effective when used right, but anyone who has to rely on sylph for kills will have a hard time using it for anything but support in a party. Triton's biggest weakness is if you load it up with the shield and heals, you have only your delphic and auto attacks to hit your opponent.

I think what makes guardian rune so irksome is that it is instant (barring lag). Just like chaos, you can cue it after the opponent has cued their skill and troll them by having the rune affect the already cued skill. All I can say is welcome to the "fun" mages get to deal with when people use chaos to steal our heals. Sucks to be victim to a rune troll, eh? On the positive side, guardian is only 2 turns; chaos is 6. I can win fights even with my delphic nerfed by 70%. If they panic and cue guardian early, I just wait it out with weak hits and nuke when it wears off.

Knights may not be able to use guardian, but they aren't the only ones who have it used against them. Everyone has to deal with the instant delphic nerf troll. The only way to avoid that rune troll is to attack knights. As someone else already stated, a well built knight is a wall. I'd rather deal with 2 turn super defense troll than deal with full time super defense troll. Always a bit disheartening to hit a knight for 200k and see that barely takes 1/4 of his/her HP. Then he/she completely erases it with a 300k heal from a heal rune.

What I would suggest for knights is to use heal rune and amnesia rune. As a mage, clearly, I am an expert on knight play style and skills =P The reason I suggest heal and amnesia is simple. Mages often rely on heal spam and rely on their sylph to kill things. As long as you can survive sylph round, you've got it made vs a heal spammer. Tank the sylph round, amnesia troll them to block their heals, then EDD them in the face in bonus time. If they survive that, you should be ready to sylph and finish them off. If you're fighting a mage that brings more dps than heals, then save the amnesia troll for sylph round. You'll either block their sylph skills or you'll block that annoying guardian troll; either way is a bonus for you.

[SlowPlay]

I think what makes guardian rune so irksome is that it is instant (barring lag). Just like chaos, you can cue it after the opponent has cued their skill and troll them by having the rune affect the already cued skill. All I can say is welcome to the "fun" mages get to deal with when people use chaos to steal our heals. Sucks to be victim to a rune troll, eh? On the positive side, guardian is only 2 turns; chaos is 6. I can win fights even with my delphic nerfed by 70%. If they panic and cue guardian early, I just wait it out with weak hits and nuke when it wears off.

Chaos is 3, not 6, and is luck based, you may or may not steal an heal, same goes for amen, you may or may not lock the right skill. Guardian always nerf opponent attack by 70% for 2 turn. Would you like to have a guardian rune that has a chance to decrease opponent damage by 70% for 3 turn? Or face a chaos rune that procs 100% for 2 turn? I think we both know the answer to that.

Knights may not be able to use guardian, but they aren't the only ones who have it used against them. Everyone has to deal with the instant delphic nerf troll.

The big difference there is that you get to use guardian yourself when you face mage/archer with guardian, knight don't have it.

What I would suggest for knights is to use heal rune and amnesia rune. As a mage, clearly, I am an expert on knight play style and skills =P The reason I suggest heal and amnesia is simple. Mages often rely on heal spam and rely on their sylph to kill things. As long as you can survive sylph round, you've got it made vs a heal spammer. Tank the sylph round, amnesia troll them to block their heals, then EDD them in the face in bonus time. If they survive that, you should be ready to sylph and finish them off. If you're fighting a mage that brings more dps than heals, then save the amnesia troll for sylph round. You'll either block their sylph skills or you'll block that annoying guardian troll; either way is a bonus for you.

Amne block 5 skill, since basically every mage bring resto and heal rune, what's the chance to lock those 2 togheter? Edd is way too slow to cast that i'm not even using it anymore (i'm not using any delphic atm even, rather have death warrant to counter that freakin suntoria of yours :P)

[sprog]

Triton is the tankiest sylph in the game with its heal skills and its shield. Considering its weak vs the highest single target dps sylph in the game, it needs to have skills to tank & recover after those nukes. Triton is very effective when used right, but anyone who has to rely on sylph for kills will have a hard time using it for anything but support in a party. Triton's biggest weakness is if you load it up with the shield and heals, you have only your delphic and auto attacks to hit your opponent.

I think what makes guardian rune so irksome is that it is instant (barring lag). Just like chaos, you can cue it after the opponent has cued their skill and troll them by having the rune affect the already cued skill. All I can say is welcome to the "fun" mages get to deal with when people use chaos to steal our heals. Sucks to be victim to a rune troll, eh? On the positive side, guardian is only 2 turns; chaos is 6. I can win fights even with my delphic nerfed by 70%. If they panic and cue guardian early, I just wait it out with weak hits and nuke when it wears off.

Knights may not be able to use guardian, but they aren't the only ones who have it used against them. Everyone has to deal with the instant delphic nerf troll. The only way to avoid that rune troll is to attack knights. As someone else already stated, a well built knight is a wall. I'd rather deal with 2 turn super defense troll than deal with full time super defense troll. Always a bit disheartening to hit a knight for 200k and see that barely takes 1/4 of his/her HP. Then he/she completely erases it with a 300k heal from a heal rune.

What I would suggest for knights is to use heal rune and amnesia rune. As a mage, clearly, I am an expert on knight play style and skills =P The reason I suggest heal and amnesia is simple. Mages often rely on heal spam and rely on their sylph to kill things. As long as you can survive sylph round, you've got it made vs a heal spammer. Tank the sylph round, amnesia troll them to block their heals, then EDD them in the face in bonus time. If they survive that, you should be ready to sylph and finish them off. If you're fighting a mage that brings more dps than heals, then save the amnesia troll for sylph round. You'll either block their sylph skills or you'll block that annoying guardian troll; either way is a bonus for you.

Shows you how the game has change since this was written. sylph is the most important part of the game. Further resist is by far and away the most important element in sylph battles. See a few tritons in BG but really the negative versus herc is overwhelming IMO.

[JeffExtreme]

I wanted to say thanks for cleaning up the thread.

The truth is that a small and very vocal group of knights just want a return to knight's utter dominance as it was for a time before block-heal got nerfed.

I agree. That's what it seems like, IMO.

[pietjeprecies]

It's ok Littlelyseria. pietjeprecies has been trolling me a while now. It's why I posted that last line.

I wonder which one of us is the troll.

he truth is that a small and very vocal group of knights just want a return to knight's utter dominance as it was for a time before block-heal got nerfed.

To be honest, the block heal only healed me for 4k before the nerf, since im a late starter.
I have no experience with knights being the dominant class, as its no secret knights kinda suck at lower levels due the half skill tree and slow casting speed.
How ever i did wrote somewhere in this very same threat I understand why the block heal got nerfed in a way, I just dont agree with the current way.

piet - you can ignore the rest - I'm going to "write a book" and explain my experiences.

Since you amuse me Im gonna reply.

history

No need to comment on things that have passed, beside the fact you only speak of knights you (prolly) wouldnt beat in the first place.

It would be nice if they Advanced Purification and Purge Runes.

If Purge Adv Rune dispelled "undispellable" effects like Brutality, Guardian, Medusa Brutality and Triton Shield starting at 20% and up to 100% effectiveness at max level, it would be desirable.

If Puri Adv Rune was immune to Chaos effect and had a 20% to 100% (at max) chance to give a 2-round "Bubble" of debuff protection it'd be a Group PvP Mainstay as an Amnesia / Chaos shield.

And then make all those mid-level Runes available to all classes.

The idea of advanced purge rune is kinda ok, however the triton shield is already purgable.
But we both know its not gonna change, so its a pretty save suggestion to make isn't?

I dont really see the point for the advanced purify rune, since no knight would ever bring it to PVP since we NEED the heal rune, and the other spot saved for either chaos amnesia or purge, purge mainly for cw, at least in my case.
Archers kinda carry the guardian and heal rune, i doubt they would have any space for it either.
And of course mage's cant have one.

[KS222]

Chaos is 3, not 6, and is luck based, you may or may not steal an heal, same goes for amen, you may or may not lock the right skill. Guardian always nerf opponent attack by 70% for 2 turn. Would you like to have a guardian rune that has a chance to decrease opponent damage by 70% for 3 turn? Or face a chaos rune that procs 100% for 2 turn? I think we both know the answer to that.

Chaos is luck based, but the player has no way of knowing if it will fail or not. I don't care too much about nuking my own troops, but full healing my opponent is a rather massive troll, especially if I"m low enough HP to be casting heal in the first place. When chaosed, I resort to heal rune if I need a heal because healing my opponent does me far more harm than getting a crappy (by comparison) heal does. I've seen chaos last 6 turns in arena; might be the other team just spams it so much that I'm perpetually chaosed and can't see when one ends and next one begins. Lag also makes chaos last longer; this is probably because its based off of my turns rather than opponent's turns, so if I'm lagging, the opponent gets more hits while I'm chaosed. Chaos has 2 points of fail; maxed chaos has only one since chance to stick is 100%. It has chance to stick and chance to steal a skill. Chaos would be more powerful if it could steal every skill, but runes and certain skills (agoran, for example) can never be stolen. A chaosed knight can often blow 3 turns without using any skill chaos can steal. Mages can't except in 1 vs 1, where all chaos does is give strong chance of heal theft.

The big difference there is that you get to use guardian yourself when you face mage/archer with guardian, knight don't have it.

I don't care if people use guardian against me. Its part of the game and I adapted to deal with it. Nerf my delphic and I know your guardian is on cd when cue thunderer. Use it to nerf my thunderer, and I know you'll be on cd when I have sylph delphic ready. I don't rely on my sylph delphic for kills. I am deadly in and out of sylph mode.

If you rely on your sylph delphic for kills, that might be why guardian rune is such an issue for you. Adapt. Work around it. Bring your delphic and drop an EDD in your opponent's face in bonus time.

Amne block 5 skill, since basically every mage bring resto and heal rune, what's the chance to lock those 2 togheter? Edd is way too slow to cast that i'm not even using it anymore (i'm not using any delphic atm even, rather have death warrant to counter that freakin suntoria of yours :P)

From what I've seen, amnesia never blocks marriage skill, so if you have maxed amnesia, you'll block 5/8 of the available moves (stun, runes, skills). No skill ever gets blocked twice (you always block 5 skills, not randomly block 5 and sometimes have it double up and really block only 4 or 3). It seems fairly random and I haven't seen any particular thing always get blocked, so there is roughly a 62% chance for each skill to be blocked by amnesia. The chances are pretty good that you'll block at least one, if not both. I've seen knights use intercept + amnesia for a total shutdown, then follow with EDD. Its a pretty potent combo. In bonus time, that rage theft is near total. If they have sylph ready afterwards, it leaves the mage without enough rage for heal, possibly with blocked rune, and having to try to tank sylph mode without full HP.

These are tactics I've seen used and seen work. It may not be your style. If you prefer to leave your hardest hits at home and then complain that guardian is unfair, that's your choice. The odds of the devs changing guardian any time soon are pretty small, so I'd say you'd be happier if you adapt your skills to get wins in spite of super defense troll.

[R23199156]

rune

Because of that guardianrune R2 will start losing knights that already play and new players won't start playing knight class. Guardianrune like it is at this moment is anti-gaming in his purest form. Make it like agoran shield or sunto!!! weak for purge.

[daunapu]

but full healing my opponent is a rather massive troll

I like this logic. "Fully healing myself is ok, but fully healing my opponent, cause he was so damn lucky with applying debuff proc and skill choice and actual rune proc is a massive troll"

Ok.

[Savana77]

Think I saw that movie before!!!