Debating returning to EWD

[ATreeTopper]

No, I still don't understand. Please explain this thoroughly. No, I'm not trolling, I just don't really follow what you are saying.

Take two six-sided dice (think Monopoly dice). A result of 6 or 7 is considered average thus no change. If you roll a result of 2, it has a major negative impact on the damage you deal, a 12 is a major positive. This is how Ruthlessness works. Normal float damage is roughly 10% criticals not included, Ruthlessness increases the range of results before critical damage is applied. Assume your average damage is 1 million, normal float would have a range of 900k to 1.1 million. Ruthlessness at 70% expands this further to a range of 200k to 1.8 million damage before criticals are taken into account. Since a critical is a multiplier, you could conceivably do much less or a lot more depending on the result. That is why SpeeDHunter suggests to use a lower level Ruth astral with EWD as your base damage is increased, the lower level Ruth astral provides a larger range of results but too large a variety often hurts... If I understood correctly

[laba-laba]

can u give an example to explain it a bit further, because i just woke up and i try to see what you mean but i fail miserably?

I'll give example numbers, my avg damage is 600k and using 75% ruthlessness.
With crit+L10 determination:
- max is = 600 x 2 x 1.75 = 2.1M damage
- min is = 600 x 2 x 1/75 = 16k damage
With L10 wd:
- max is = 600 x (1.5+ .75) = 1.35M damage
- min is = 600 x (1.5 - .75) = 450k damage

At least that's my approximation, unless someone can give better approach.

[Yesheron]

Take two six-sided dice (think Monopoly dice). A result of 6 or 7 is considered average thus no change. If you roll a result of 2, it has a major negative impact on the damage you deal, a 12 is a major positive. This is how Ruthlessness works. Normal float damage is roughly 10% criticals not included, Ruthlessness increases the range of results before critical damage is applied. Assume your average damage is 1 million, normal float would have a range of 900k to 1.1 million. Ruthlessness at 70% expands this further to a range of 200k to 1.8 million damage before criticals are taken into account. Since a critical is a multiplier, you could conceivably do much less or a lot more depending on the result. That is why SpeeDHunter suggests to use a lower level Ruth astral with EWD as your base damage is increased, the lower level Ruth astral provides a larger range of results but too large a variety often hurts... If I understood correctly

Alright so this is the deal as I understand it that would explain Ruthlessness being seen as more favorable for EWD than Crit users, while still giving the exact same damage output over time.

Now:

EWD increases your damage with a set amount. Question is if this extra damage is treated as a separate packet or not.

If it is treated as a separate packet?

Normal damage 100k.

Float makes normal damage 90k-110k.

EWD makes this 140k-160k.

Ruthlessness level 10 makes it 20k-180k.

EWD makes it 70k-220k.

Now take the crit formula (Crit/Deter 10):

(This is assuming it always crits):

Damage is 200k.

Normal float makes this 180k-220k.

Level 10 Ruthlessness makes this 40k-360k.

Am I completely off base here???

[DanteMugetsu]

I'll give example numbers, my avg damage is 600k and using 75% ruthlessness.
With crit+L10 determination:
- max is = 600 x 2 x 1.75 = 2.1M damage
- min is = 600 x 2 x 1/75 = 16k damage
With L10 wd:
- max is = 600 x (1.5+ .75) = 1.35M damage
- min is = 600 x (1.5 - .75) = 450k damage

At least that's my approximation, unless someone can give better approach.

unless you did a mistake in 16k damage, i can never believe u would do 16k in any situation with 600k base...something is off

[Brutal_Hobo]

unless you did a mistake in 16k damage, i can never believe u would do 16k in any situation with 600k base...something is off

no its how the calculation is working
its unlikely but its true
i was using ruthlessness for a time on wb
around level 5 or 6
i did an 80k crit delphic with my herc

[DanteMugetsu]

no its how the calculation is working
its unlikely but its true
i was using ruthlessness for a time on wb
around level 5 or 6
i did an 80k crit delphic with my herc

so if i get 45% ruthless, with ewd i will have almost the same result as being with crit (w/o ruthles) and i wont have to worry if opponent has guardian angel? only downside for mages is crit heals then? also wont use anymore crit gems?

[Yesheron]

The 1/75 value seems off. It should be 0.25. 1/75 < 0.25.

[laba-laba]

unless you did a mistake in 16k damage, i can never believe u would do 16k in any situation with 600k base...something is off

It is hard to believe, but yes I've hit 20k damage on hercules delphic. It's easier to see/test on atoll bosses.

so if i get 45% ruthless, with ewd i will have almost the same result as being with crit (w/o ruthles) and i wont have to worry if opponent has guardian angel? only downside for mages is crit heals then? also wont use anymore crit gems?

That's probably true, havent try that tho. I love my gold too much

[ATreeTopper]

Float damage seems to work as +10% to -10%, and Ruthlessness astral increases that value (70% Ruth making the range as +80% to -80% or 180% damage to as low as 20% before criticals). I stopped using Ruth astral not long after sylphs were released, as seeing my Gaia (now Eve) Delphic doing less damage than Short Circuit even with Unstable Voltage on a critical hit. Ruthlessness can be something of a way around the disabled crit hits from EWD, overall I find that a higher level Ruth would bring too many often low results, especially since in the case of WB, most finish with a delphic.

I think that EWD is applied before Ruthlessness, so the math is very messy. Base damage increased before the float value is applied. Or it seemed that way when I used the EWD/Ruth combination on my mage toon.

[pietjeprecies]

It is hard to believe, but yes I've hit 20k damage on hercules delphic.

That brings me back to my question, why would one use it, if that's the result.

[Brutal_Hobo]

That brings me back to my question, why would one use it, if that's the result.

because it can massively increase the damage as well
personally i dont like it
a few times i used it i hit the 500k mark in wb before the cashers did simply because i hit a 400k+ armour piercers
but that was like a few seconds of glory, overall my income dropped i think
its good for stuff like sky trail though, when you dont quite have enough power to beat it
a lucky round can give you that extra edge
it can turn a 400k delphic into an 80k delphic
or it can turn a 400k delphic into a 1m delphic

[LyNxEfecT]

That brings me back to my question, why would one use it, if that's the result.

very few but a lucky string of positive hits can bring down ppl in bg you would not be able to beat. I also used it in spire once at lvl 7 float for a laugh and with herc and Vulcan I hit over 4.4 mill

[pietjeprecies]

because it can massively increase the damage as well
personally i dont like it
a few times i used it i hit the 500k mark in wb before the cashers did simply because i hit a 400k+ armour piercers
but that was like a few seconds of glory, overall my income dropped i think
its good for stuff like sky trail though, when you dont quite have enough power to beat it
a lucky round can give you that extra edge
it can turn a 400k delphic into an 80k delphic
or it can turn a 400k delphic into a 1m delphic

The little use of it makes me even question more if the gold investment is worth it.
Eventually you'll pass that boss you want to beat anyway.

I hoped someone could give a good occasion to use it, but it seems its just some last resort astral for those with nothing left do spend gold on.

[Brutal_Hobo]

The little use of it makes me even question more if the gold investment is worth it.
Eventually you'll pass that boss you want to beat anyway.

I hoped someone could give a good occasion to use it, but it seems its just some last resort astral for those with nothing left do spend gold on.

ah well i didnt spend gold on it
had it in reserve, got an extra deflection astral
decided to try it out

[ATreeTopper]

personally i dont like it..
but that was like a few seconds of glory, overall my income dropped i think...
a lucky round can give you that extra edge

In agreement with these statements about Ruthlessness in general. For WB I felt my overall income dropped drastically when my other astrals became better quality and higher level (specifically Pristine to Holy Sniper Edge and base Determination to Pristine Determination) while using Ruthlessness. I find it is too unpredictable an astral, but EWD might reduce the negative effects enough to be worth it for non-Archers. Most of the EWD users I know have changed over to a Crit build when they were tough enough bastages to have less of a need to shore up defenses, usually as of lvl 60 and up.