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Runaway Mage Healing

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  • #46
    Originally posted by SlowPlay View Post
    When did it turn on a mage vs knight thread? Thought it was about mage heals. Then again, you face 2 opponent that are patk and you have low pdef but in the same way you face 2 class that have lower mdef while you hit with matk. It works both ways. And knight vs archer can be pretty annoyin with that damn guardian rune
    Yeah...i hate it too when those damn knights use guardian rune ;p

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    • #47
      Originally posted by SlowPlay View Post
      @zorich Dude so many mistake, it's not even funny to point them out.

      1st knight heal boost doesn't work on heal rune, neither does on block heal so on a 1vs1 it doesn't help at all (it's basically a pve/group pvp passive) unless that knight is playin triton.
      Can you prove that it doesn't work on the rune? It has been documented as working as such as recently as about 2 months ago. If it's changed, then my bad. I never said it works on block - don't make things up.

      Originally posted by SlowPlay View Post
      2nd damage dealt /= chance to crit
      Don't know where you're getting that from either (Assuming this is regarding DS). The adjusted damage is from the increased damage stack that adds an effective +32% Skill Damage. You want to get technical - a Crit does an extra 100% Damage (or more) with a max Determination. That means if one increase their Crit Chance by 20%, it would effective increase their overall Damage by 10% (since Crits make up 50% of total damage when triggered).

      So a 20% Crit Increase, a +10% Damage Stack AND the Advanced +10% Crit Damage all combines to be +10%, +10% and +5% damage increases over the long haul. Also, the damage effects are on the damage, not the skill%, so really that 320% Delphic Sniper, over time, average the same as a 400% Skill would without the Crit and Damage Boosts. It's why Archers of equal BR consistently put up 20% or more damage in WB and clear PvE obstacles faster.

      Originally posted by SlowPlay View Post
      3nd knight can use only 1 between edd and dd unless u delay a lot awaken or u get lucky with rage reduction (and i don't see any knight bring both edd and dd in pvp, i'm actually not using any of those anymore just because they're way too slow to use in pvp and make each one longer) so don't pick both, just pick the highest and you'll see that any same br mage can outheal slasher/us with sunt (that's 5 turn) and edd with restore and still do damage with thunderer.
      Not saying any Knight in their right mind would bring both DD and EDD except maybe in WB. I'm saying you knights have two (really 3 when you count the Adv Skill with the Bleed) better single-target damage attacks available to you, as well as a Rage Drainer and better Rage Gain and better Basic Rotational Skills and a 20% HP Shield and a 30% Damage Reducer on top of a free 5% DR and 7% Crit Reducer AND a triggerable 21% Damage Increaser and triggerable 14% Damage Reducer.

      Sorry, you guys have no room to complain.

      Originally posted by SlowPlay View Post
      I've never played archer but think that 320% is dds, really few archer use it in 1vs1 pvp, most use ap/is which are more usefull and then again a same br mage can outheal them pretty easly with sunt and restore while doing damage with thunderer. About ap debuff, it's as usefull as reverse damage for knight. 1k less pdef when ur opponent has 50k+ it's pretty much nothing.
      Nope, 320% base is Delphic Sniper, NOT Delphic Death Star. And the AP Debuff is just icing on the cake for a 200% Damage Skill (w/ QTE) that Cools Down in 1s and has a fairly cheap 35 Rage cost (net loss of only 20 Rage w/ a Crit).

      Now, as you pointed out just before - you say you can't get both a DD and EDD off before awaken. How is a Mage getting off Sunto, Resto and Multiple Thunderers to do damage? My 1 On 1 PvP rotation is RoF (to clear troops), LB, Sunto, LB, LB, Resto + Awaken. If I used Thunderer I couldn't afford that last Resto and would take an extra round to awaken.

      Originally posted by SlowPlay View Post
      4th 750k hp knight, yeah sure there are as many knight with those hp as mage with 160k matk (few) but it's pretty much the same that op said, knight shield will get stronger and stronger and same goes for mage heal since they're based on atk.
      Ahh, but back to the earlier +20% HP Boost. That applies to Knights HP, as well as Bubble, since Bubble is based off HP, so you benefit from that passive 2x, 3x when you consider Heal Rune as a % of HP Healing.

      Many Knights complain about the Guardian Rune which does (at max) a 70% Reduction for 2 Rounds, but you've got a 30% Reduction for 4 Rounds - which is fairly comparable over time. And remember that all it takes is carrying a Chaos to steal a Mage's Resto / Sunto to effective nullify their heals. There's nothing we can do to prevent that damned Rage Drain or 25% PAtk Bleed for 3 Rounds that bypasses PDef. Losing 25k HP per tick for 3 ticks from a 100k PAtk Knight is brutal - especially when my PDef, as a Mage, is > 80k and should help me a HELL of a lot more.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by MrFancyPants View Post
        Intercept can be incredibly annoying, but as it's completely ineffective vs. sylphs, I wouldn't call it totally broken. It does virtually no damage, so it's barely even an attack. Best case, you stop your opponent's attack, doing essentially nothing in return, and then you can bring out stronger skills while he's stuck building rage.
        If non-sylph attacks mattered more, then I might use it, but it's not quite worth it for me.
        As a Mage, a loss of 50 Rage cripples me. I have to spend 3 rounds just casting LB to get it back. When paired with an Amnesia I've sat there doing nothing but default attacks while my opponent laid into me and was awakening while I was scrambling to drop my sunto and resto under the protection of the ever-hated Guardian Rune.

        Originally posted by MrFancyPants View Post
        Those numbers are for the absolute monsters out there. 400k rune means a maxed advanced heal rune and 800k hp. I doubt there are more than 20 players like that in any time zone. Closer to my level, that's exactly the way I feel when I have nearly finished a mage and he uses resto for 300k. A 450k knight will rune for ~160k, and shield for ~90k. Knights might dominate at the upper echelons, but most of us aren't there yet.
        At where I'm at (~600k BR Mage) the vast majority of losses I suffer are to Knights. There's only 3 Archers that give me much of a problem, and they're all in the 700k or higher range. I can take most 650k+ Mages. But a good 600k Knight who knows how to use his skills and runes as well as knows how to be reactionary instead of predictable will give me fits.

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        • #49
          You want to talk about over healing, my guildie who is a mage as triton as her main and it has warm springs, rain dance, delphic, ice bolt and ice shield. If you complain so much about them over healing get a triton and get the skills I listed. Freaking OP with that ice shield and the delphic and ice bolt hurts since no one really uses water resist
          IGN: princestewii
          Class: Archer
          Server: Kabam 86

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Zorich View Post
            Can you prove that it doesn't work on the rune? It has been documented as working as such as recently as about 2 months ago. If it's changed, then my bad. I never said it works on block - don't make things up.

            There's nothing we can do to prevent that damned Rage Drain or 25% PAtk Bleed for 3 Rounds that bypasses PDef. Losing 25k HP per tick for 3 ticks from a 100k PAtk Knight is brutal - especially when my PDef, as a Mage, is > 80k and should help me a HELL of a lot more.
            Yes, I can confirm the rune heals exactly the % it says on a knight, no passive skill boost. Plugged the numbers into a calculator just to be sure my math was right.

            And the bleed works the same as poison arrow: (PATK - PDEF) * X%. Not sure what the floor is, maybe 10% of PATK. It's practically nothing vs. a high pdef target (my 97k patk sometimes only gives a 3k bleed), but low pdef with high resist it's potentially quite effective. I don't think there's many players capable of inflicting a 25k bleed on you, though. That would require 180k PATK.

            Originally posted by Zorich View Post
            As a Mage, a loss of 50 Rage cripples me. I have to spend 3 rounds just casting LB to get it back. When paired with an Amnesia I've sat there doing nothing but default attacks while my opponent laid into me and was awakening while I was scrambling to drop my sunto and resto under the protection of the ever-hated Guardian Rune.
            OK, I totally have to give you that one, amnesia is pretty nasty by itself (at level 9-10), and leading with intercept makes for a killer combo. I've found timing intercept is very tricky, since resto only takes 2 LB to cast, if starting from 0, but if I had a high enough amnesia, that would make the window of effectiveness much wider.

            I also imagine that 600K+ players will have significantly more res reduction, making hero mode attacks a lot more relevant, so I can see your perspective on that too. For me, hero attacks usually account for at most 25% of the damage I inflict, except for the rare cases when someone has highest dark resist. So, frequently, if I don't end the fight with a mage during my first awaken, all they need to do is use resto, then wait it out and finish me off with the next awaken.

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            • #51
              @Zorich
              Heal rune, u do the math.
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              If i didn't mistaken what u wrote you mixed up once again chance to crit with damage dealt, the ds has a 320+25 from qte damage dealt (345% in the end) with a +20% chance to crit, that chance to crit doesn't make damage higher, just make ds more likely to crit.

              True that we have 2 delphic (death warrant isn't stronger then thunderer) but we still can use one at most on pvp so it's pointless talk about both and i'd like to remember you cthat you can bring only 5 skill on pvp so given s us and shield you have to pick the other 2 between edd, dd, apollo, intercept, trasher or dw, you can't bring them all else i could say a mage can use damn, sunt, puri, restore, thunderer, bl, that advanced reduce damage skill etc, you got my point.
              Now talkin about usable skill:
              intercept does no damage and has to be combined with amnesia to really do something and now with people having 66+ starting rage is kinda pointless to even bring it in battle except maybe for knight cw to steal rage after pet (if you didn't know intercept remove 75 rage on 50% and 100 rage on 100%)
              trasher is a slow cast attack that does overall less damage then us+dw.
              apollo, slow cast, has to be used before pet so it basically last 1 turn less then it should and it's only 30% so just make up for the -30% mdef debuff of hercules
              you're wrong on passive, it's 7% damage reduce and 5% crit reduce
              about talent, we could talk also about mage talent that reduce rage/add rage and nullify all your point of not having enough rage.
              Also about rage gain, if we pick the basic skill we get 5 more rage (slasher 25 against lb 20) but our skill cost way more rage, for istance your thunderer is 50 against edd 100, your aoe is 30 (meteor) against our 50 ww, your restore is 35 and your sunt is 30 against our shield 30 but restore give more hp then shield (even if uncrit i think but feel free to prove me wrong) and also give you a meaningless damage reduction but since you like to talk about every little thing i'll talk about that too , i don't think mage have that huge problem with rage tbh, it's just something that keep coming back from when we all were using pvp set.

              About your rotation, rof give you +6 rage, lb +20, sunt -20, lb +20, lb +20, restore -25 (15 possibly), awaken give you 10 (14 even?) rage so you end each pvp with a net gain of 31 rage (with the averange clothes around u'd end each pvp with 90/95 rage), i should ask why because you can easly stick in a thunderer instead of a lb.

              As i said before apollo last 1 turn less since you have to count it has to be used before awaken and -30 damage on 200% skill is not the same as 70% on 250/470% skill.
              Dw doesn't bypass pdef, either dw is broken or your pdef count, the description is weird anyway and if can avoid it, just carry puri (following your idea that knight should bring useless skill in pvp).
              About chaos, will give you a fresh statistic i got today from the 2 bg i did, 1 procs out of 13 possible chance (not counting when chaos was on and opponent used a damage skill, just couting possible resto/sunt/aoe steal), will keep taking track about chaos % of procs and will let you know, atm to me it seem like 10/15% (ah btw my chaos is lvl 10).

              Sometime i can use a 580k mage (i'm a 600k knight) and i've to say that it's a lot easier to do bg with mage, never had trouble killing knight, had some trouble with archer using aegis but those with hercules were piece of cake.

              Sorry in advance for all the horrible grammar mistake i made.
              Last edited by SlowPlay; 03-06-2015, 09:43 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by princestewii View Post
                You want to talk about over healing, my guildie who is a mage as triton as her main and it has warm springs, rain dance, delphic, ice bolt and ice shield. If you complain so much about them over healing get a triton and get the skills I listed. Freaking OP with that ice shield and the delphic and ice bolt hurts since no one really uses water resist
                Had a fight against a mage with maxed orange triton, oneshotted with delphic. Problem is that with nerf on dim you can't get 1k+ electro res while using triton (or ok you can but it's freakin hard) and when people around have 600 or more res red, it's pretty much a suicide go in bg with triton.

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                • #53
                  Not sure if all of SlowPlay infos are exact, but at least it seems like he's been playing a knight for more than 10 min.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by SlowPlay View Post
                    Had a fight against a mage with maxed orange triton, oneshotted with delphic. Problem is that with nerf on dim you can't get 1k+ electro res while using triton (or ok you can but it's freakin hard) and when people around have 600 or more res red, it's pretty much a suicide go in bg with triton.
                    True but if they have high enough hp and defenses using ice shield would do either no damage for 3 turns or you break it on turn 2 and a heal from them could take away herc's buff and if they are lucky the delphic wont kill. A similar br knight outplayed me with his triton putting on apollo then that ice shield then healed up after. Even the mages in that bg whined about his triton
                    IGN: princestewii
                    Class: Archer
                    Server: Kabam 86

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                    • #55
                      Restore heals 75% of your Matk, which is typically 1/3 to 1/4 of a mage's hp (I'm sitting on 54k Matk with Eve, and 240k hp, for example), +300 + a 15% damage reduction for 2 turns. Are you telling me that 20% of a Knight's hp (their strong point to which they receive bonuses) is less than that? Seriously?

                      Hell, even with my MAtk and HP, I am healing 40k HP, while a shield using my HP would give me an extra 48k HP. Add to that a Knights CONSTANT 7% damage reduction, 5% crit reduction and heal bonuses (i.e., rune/Triton) from skills, I think that knights who complain about mage healing is more than a bit rich.

                      Honestly, guys, a high level Knight is nigh impossible to beat when done right. A ton of passives (bonus to HP, Pdef, PAtk, damage reduction, crit reduction, healing, and a rage regeneration that is situationally one of the best), plus a range of debuffs, damage absorption, etc., the only thing a Knight really needs to get going is healing. Well hello, Triton.

                      Also, don't tell me Intercept is useless. Hit a mage with one in PvP and he's done for at least two rounds, and that is 2 rounds too long in arena fights. An Intercept can kill the BL that will win my team the fight or the follow up Meteor that will wipe out half of the other team. Even a 1 round delay will allow their mage the time to BL their team out of the danger zone of my Meteor.

                      It seems to me that the problem lies not with the class, but with the player. Far too many players depend on their wallets and play the "I hit you, you hit me" game, rather than playing to the strengths of the class and the weaknesses of the opposing class. They look at the BR their money bought and expect to win when they have 280k BR and the opponent has 230k, and then cry when said 230k guy blow them to hell with a well-played Delphic preceded by a couple of sneaky debuffs.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        MAGE is MAGE
                        ARCHER is ARCHER
                        KNIGHT is KNIGHT

                        They all have differences.. If you want to win then just go make your character stronger.
                        Mage
                        Name: Yumi - 4.3M BR
                        Server: S187 Fel Reach
                        Guild: Ragnarok

                        Non-VIP & Non-Balen User

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by AdaJames View Post
                          Restore heals 75% of your Matk, which is typically 1/3 to 1/4 of a mage's hp (I'm sitting on 54k Matk with Eve, and 240k hp, for example), +300 + a 15% damage reduction for 2 turns. Are you telling me that 20% of a Knight's hp (their strong point to which they receive bonuses) is less than that? Seriously?

                          Hell, even with my MAtk and HP, I am healing 40k HP, while a shield using my HP would give me an extra 48k HP. Add to that a Knights CONSTANT 7% damage reduction, 5% crit reduction and heal bonuses (i.e., rune/Triton) from skills, I think that knights who complain about mage healing is more than a bit rich.

                          Honestly, guys, a high level Knight is nigh impossible to beat when done right. A ton of passives (bonus to HP, Pdef, PAtk, damage reduction, crit reduction, healing, and a rage regeneration that is situationally one of the best), plus a range of debuffs, damage absorption, etc., the only thing a Knight really needs to get going is healing. Well hello, Triton.

                          Also, don't tell me Intercept is useless. Hit a mage with one in PvP and he's done for at least two rounds, and that is 2 rounds too long in arena fights. An Intercept can kill the BL that will win my team the fight or the follow up Meteor that will wipe out half of the other team. Even a 1 round delay will allow their mage the time to BL their team out of the danger zone of my Meteor.

                          It seems to me that the problem lies not with the class, but with the player. Far too many players depend on their wallets and play the "I hit you, you hit me" game, rather than playing to the strengths of the class and the weaknesses of the opposing class. They look at the BR their money bought and expect to win when they have 280k BR and the opponent has 230k, and then cry when said 230k guy blow them to hell with a well-played Delphic preceded by a couple of sneaky debuffs.
                          Dude, read the full thread before posting Heal bonus on knight doesn't work on heal rune, also make up your mind, 1/4 of 240k is 60k then you say u heal for 40k, one of those number is wrong and i'm pretty sure that uncrit heal heal more then knight shield (lowest restore i've seen in a long time is around 100k and was of a 400k or so mage, a 400k knight doesn't shield for 100k hp, i've also seen plenty of 300k+ restore. I've given a try to intercept today but with people having 60+ rage at start it's just a waste of 35 rage without doing damage and the only thing it does it's slow down the pvp, maybe with amnesia it would be more usefull but i don't have maxed amne yet. I guess you're a low level mage given your matk and really don't remember how it used to work at those level but we're talkin about end game, lvl 80 with rage issue it's kind of a joke. Anyway once again, i've no problem with mage restore (except being boring), my only "problem" is with suntoria which without cap is kinda as op as it would be knight block without the 3k cap. That said, i dunno how they could possibly fix suntoria because i've seen the nerf they did on block heal with that cap and that can't work.

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                          • #58
                            Yes, any mage doing 40k heals is way below the level we've been talking about. I think archers used to dominate in that range. In the 400k-500k range, mage heals are typically more like 1/2-3/4 of their hp, sometimes even more.

                            A knight with a triton can be hard to beat, but it will take forever to win a fight. If you can't win any other way, I suppose it's worth it, but I'd rather not spend 3+ minutes on every fight.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Ice_Ace View Post
                              MAGE is MAGE
                              ARCHER is ARCHER
                              KNIGHT is KNIGHT

                              They all have differences.. If you want to win then just go make your character stronger.
                              I could say something about your BR related to your " make your character stronger" but..

                              The point isn't the difference in class, and most mage's who kick my butt should have won anyway but lately i cross a lot of mage's that arent dealing any dammage, are close to kneel several times, but are able to heal to full health 2 or 3 times during a battle. and we're not talking about under 300k heals here.
                              I totally get heal is part of being mage, but in this insane amounts its just not right.

                              The argument that mage's basic hp is lower is not really valid, basic hp is for like lvl 20, we're talking lvl 80 here.
                              Right now every class is able to get a monster amount of hp.

                              Sure a chaos helps, but even my lvl 9 doesnt work half the time.
                              Besides a rune being the best solution to beat a different class shouldn't be granted in the gameplay anyways.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                grass is always greener on the other side
                                when u get over its never greener

                                u have never use ur runes to full potential saying knights without guardian rune is such a disability
                                Have u ever ever consider that
                                Using a purify rune ( which mage cannot use while in sylph mode ) that purify the skill of shock chain is actually like using a guardian rune )

                                True .... guardian rune is more powerful when max but purify that - 30 mdef debuff combine ur Apollo shield - 30 % damage taken will be on par

                                PPL discussion like this I hate to spoonfeed as in previous threads I did say before

                                Learn ur advantages that mages or archers doesn't have

                                Do not just look at other's advantages and say LOOK its Imba somethings wrong nerf nerf

                                The same can be said for healing insanely I already say before drag out the fight heal amount dun increases ur damage increases

                                If ur br is almost similar with the resistance almost similar the fight is to ur advantage

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