The fundamental flaw in assuming that everyone gains if you steal from your friends.

[Xhiah]

This thread is in response to an earlier thread (which I forgot the title), where the OP makes this claim
"If everyone steals, everyone benefits.", which is false.

Edit: This is the post
http://forum.r2games.com/showthread....-ancient-seeds

Thank you. And it is false
THey only gain for themselves.

[kurgan2001]

kurgan, look at it this way:

You say they tend my farm and energize my tree, so they should get a steal from me.
But I tend their farm and energize their tree too, so it's perfectly fine, right? No need for more rewards.

Correct.

And if they steal from me and I steal from them, at best nobody gains anything extra which is exactly the same as no stealing at all! And if some of us gain less in the stealing process, then stealing is the wrong way.

You miss the point. The game is set up to SHARE in the farm and also by helping you increase the farm plots. It's called not being a D-bag and helping your fellow player.

And btw. I don't steal from my friends and I expect the same from them. If they don't understand how that works or if they don't respect my way of playing, they get removed or blacklisted if they camp my farm. And they don't have the right to complain or whine about it.

If you personally messaged them and set up that kind of arrangement, I think you require a bit of reality check ... the game ain't reality and you look like an even bigger D-bag.

[TimlaVmun]

THANK YOU.

It is annoying to see people say you gain more when you share. They speak without thinking. It is not correct at all.

That is why I am confused as to why you can only steal your friend's crops. That makes no sense. You cannot plunder your guildmates, so why can you ONLY steal from your friends?

[Shadowscarred]

I never explicitly said that you thought or said that he was wrong. Rather, I was suggesting that you prove his "formula" was reasonably disputable.
There was, and certainly is now, a formula, by the way.

[CondorHero]

Electrical Engineering, not Statistics.

I simplify it for the sake of presentation.
Let me give you a sketch of the proof.

Construct a directed graph of ordered pair G = (V,E).
Let V be the set of players, and E be the set of links which represent players stealing from one another.
There can be at most 3 links going into each Vertex.

You can continue the rest of the proof.

[winlord]

Dispute it, then. Prove CondorHero is wrong.
As I see it, it's impossible to increase (or even decrease) the value of any percentages in the equation simply by moving them about.
The "lost" spirits are simply percentage fractions, and the original farm owner doesn't actually lose anything - the thief does.

Wait, indisputable? So how can you possibly debate it, then?

I already said he was correct, idjit. You've actually been successful in proving how dumb you are with just 3 or 4 posts on those forums in the last day. Kudos!

[Shadowscarred]

Dispute it, then. Prove CondorHero is wrong.
As I see it, it's impossible to increase (or even decrease) the value of any percentages in the equation simply by moving them about.
The "lost" spirits are simply percentage fractions, and the original farm owner doesn't actually lose anything - the thief does.

Wait, indisputable? So how can you possibly debate it, then?

[R27176943]

kurgan, look at it this way:

You say they tend my farm and energize my tree, so they should get a steal from me.
But I tend their farm and energize their tree too, so it's perfectly fine, right? No need for more rewards.

And if they steal from me and I steal from them, at best nobody gains anything extra which is exactly the same as no stealing at all! And if some of us gain less in the stealing process, then stealing is the wrong way.

Which part of that you don't understand?

And btw. I don't steal from my friends and I expect the same from them. If they don't understand how that works or if they don't respect my way of playing, they get removed or blacklisted if they camp my farm. And they don't have the right to complain or whine about it.

[winlord]

Lol an academic debate.. what a joke.

An actual academic debate about this would require an indisputable formula or induction to show that you're correct, and while you are, you have merely shown a bunch of exmaples.
I'm sure a Ph.D in Statistics would know better.

[kurgan2001]

Say it again with me.. go troll other threads.

Truth hurts don't it. If you think this is trolling, then you haven't been to many boards. Why don't you go rest your brain for a while and let the truth sink in a bit.

[CondorHero]

YOU may be having an academic debate. All I'm seeing are loads of others being petty about a 'virtual' plant and talking about blacklisting peeps because they take a share of it? If they energize YOUR tree and tend YOUR 'virtual' garden while you're gone then what is the big flipping deal? It's called a GAME ... say it with me ... GAME.

Say it again with me.. go troll other threads.

[kurgan2001]

Nah, you're missing the point.

We're having an academic debate. The whole point of my thread is to correct the false claim that "if everyone steals, every benefits".
If you have no interest in an academic understanding, that's fine.

YOU may be having an academic debate. All I'm seeing are loads of others being petty about a 'virtual' plant and talking about blacklisting peeps because they take a share of it? If they energize YOUR tree and tend YOUR 'virtual' garden while you're gone then what is the big flipping deal? It's called a GAME ... say it with me ... GAME.

[CondorHero]

You people are arguing over a 'virtual' plant. Note the word - VIRTUAL as in IT AIN'T REAL. If you blacklist peeps from taking a share, well, good luck finding peeps to energize your tree. psss .. your pettiness is showing.

Nah, you're missing the point.

We're having an academic debate. The whole point of my thread is to correct the false claim that "if everyone steals, every benefits".
If you have no interest in an academic understanding, that's fine.

[kurgan2001]

You people are arguing over a 'virtual' plant. Note the word - VIRTUAL as in IT AIN'T REAL. If you blacklist peeps from taking a share, well, good luck finding peeps to energize your tree. psss .. your pettiness is showing.

[CondorHero]

What farm level you need to be before it stops being zero-sum? Because that's what getting better means in games.
When you're at the top on whatever area, there is nowhere else to go but down. All the work/play we do over time is slow it down.
Everybody never gains anything in the first place, everybody averages out the maximum potential, just at different pace.
Not stealing will make us go down out of our maximum faster.

At best, it's zero-sum.
The actual sum-yield of crops will be less than or equal to the sum-total if they are not stolen.
You can't do better.